19th Century German hunting Sword

fernando · 13th December 2013, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In France the term used for these short blade swords for hunting was couteau du chasse (I am no linguist especially with French!) but if I understand correctly the etymology of the word cutlass derived from couteau. Naturally I would appreciate any better informed explanation of these terms....we're here learn

Coteau de chasse translates to hunting knife (not sword). Coteau is the most basic term for knife you can imagine ... notwithstanding being the root for other derivations.

My response:

Thanks Nando! Like with most etymology in varying languages, it seems that terms used somewhat indiscriminately for knife/sword seem more focused on its use (cutting) than on its form. Most references I have seen on hunting swords use the couteau du chasse (Nuemann for example) while others often favor the German 'hirschfanger' for hunting swords. The term hanger seems to become even broader referring to military use of these shorter swords as officers often carried their own personal hunting/court type weapons. As swords of this shorter nature often carried by other ranks were comparable in size I suppose the term became associated further ?

neekee · 13th December 2013, 07:05 PM

Couteau, from Old French coutel, from Latin cultellus a little knife.

Couteau really means "knife" in French, not sword or saber. Sword could be "épée", saber would be "sabre". Although it's always hard to know what the old use for these words used to be.

I couldn't find an equivalent to the English term "hanger". The wikipedia page links to the French "sabre d'abordage" page, which would be a boarding sword.

The collector who identified this sword as a "19th century german hunting sword" called it "dague" (dagger) and "couteau" -de chasse in the same email ...

I didn't have time to take a picture of the blade today, but I can assure you again there are sadly no other markings.

Thanks to all for your interest !

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2013, 02:20 PM

Fernando and Neekee thanks so much for the interesting data on the etymology. In the study of arms there has always been such confusion and misnomer and in learning about them sometimes the terms by which they are called are often as the history of the arms themselves. It does sometimes present problems though in researching development of certain forms from contemporary narratives etc. as all you have is a verbal description without visual assistance, and a misplaced term sends you down an entirely different path.

neekee · 16th December 2013, 10:40 AM

Maybe it would be good to update the thread title with the info provided ? I don't have the required authorizations, it seems.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2013, 08:48 PM

As noted Neekee. Thank you again for presenting this and the other interesting items you have shared.

13th December 2013, 07:05 PM	#2
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	Couteau, from Old French coutel, from Latin cultellus a little knife. Couteau really means "knife" in French, not sword or saber. Sword could be "épée", saber would be "sabre". Although it's always hard to know what the old use for these words used to be. I couldn't find an equivalent to the English term "hanger". The wikipedia page links to the French "sabre d'abordage" page, which would be a boarding sword. The collector who identified this sword as a "19th century german hunting sword" called it "dague" (dagger) and "couteau" -de chasse in the same email ... I didn't have time to take a picture of the blade today, but I can assure you again there are sadly no other markings. Thanks to all for your interest !

14th December 2013, 02:20 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Fernando and Neekee thanks so much for the interesting data on the etymology. In the study of arms there has always been such confusion and misnomer and in learning about them sometimes the terms by which they are called are often as the history of the arms themselves. It does sometimes present problems though in researching development of certain forms from contemporary narratives etc. as all you have is a verbal description without visual assistance, and a misplaced term sends you down an entirely different path.

16th December 2013, 10:40 AM	#4
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	Maybe it would be good to update the thread title with the info provided ? I don't have the required authorizations, it seems.

16th December 2013, 08:48 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	As noted Neekee. Thank you again for presenting this and the other interesting items you have shared.