A 1548 Nuremberg Dagger-grip Over-and-Under Double Wheellock Pistol

Matchlock · 6th December 2013, 07:18 PM

The Met.

Matchlock · 7th December 2013, 10:05 PM

With all these superb images - still nobody caring?!

C'm on ...

m

Raf · 8th December 2013, 10:51 AM

Yes , very nice . But perhaps you could have mentioned what is really remarkable about the 1548 lock is that it has sliding pan covers with button release. All the others in this group have the earlier style of hooked pan cover where the cover and arm are in one piece. Presumably , as in the Met example ,it also has two piece interlocked sears. Thus establishing that all the classic features of wheelock design were , at least in Germany, present at this early date. Which begs the question whether early Italian wheelocks that don't have these features are earlier in date. Or whether the advantages of cheapness and simplicity outweighed the occasional expense of having to compensate wounded prostitutes.

Matchlock · 8th December 2013, 01:28 PM

Well, Raf, the mere fact that North Italian wheellocks do not have the spring-loaded push-button pan-cover release (German Drucknagel) is not per se a hint for their being the first made.
The button is generally present in Germanic wheellocks from ca. 1530-1610.

Not all German wheellocks feature that button though, and it is gone again and for good by the early 17th century.

Best,
Michael

Raf · 8th December 2013, 11:36 PM

Sorry Michael. The point seems to have got lost somewhere. I wasnt suggesting that the push button pan release ; the presence or lack of it , was of any particular geographic or chronological significance.

It seems from about 1535, and certainly by 1550 the wheelock in Germany had achieved all its classic features . But without , as far as I am aware much evidence of a development stage. In contrast , in early Italian wheelocks , we see a much wider range of solutions to problems that look more like a developing idea. Such as single locking bars (Da Vinci ) , matchlock style slot in wheel pancovers, exposed mechanisms etc.This is not a who invented the wheelock argument but it might be an argument for independant lines of development .The question was whether we should regard these Italian locks as being earlier than the earliest known German examples or simply that the Italians did things differently and for whatever reason were slower to adopt more mechanically sophisticated (and safer!) solutions.

And yes , their is I think a simple theory why push button pan covers might have been considered a desirable neccesity on some classes of firearm and an optional extra on others....

Matchlock · 9th December 2013, 02:09 PM

Oh yeah, Raf, I see and it's my turn to be sorry now.

On the other hand, South Eastern European countries such as Hungaria - think of the Komorn swamps and River Danube finds! - or Romania went their own separate ways in developing spectacuar wheellocks as well. For more than 30 years, in my theories I have ardently pleaded for accepting parallel individual strategies/lines of access to the wheellock development, so I am all in your corner as far as this is concerned!

I do bear my doubts though as to whether to look upon early Italian wheellocks as 'earlier in time' than Germanic ones. More archaic they may seem, no doubt.

E.g., please cf. the locks of the earliest datable wheellock/crossbow combination in the Bavarian National Museum Munich, ca. 1521-26 (my personal guess is ca. 1525+, and I have handled it several times, alas without being allowed to take the lock out), and the earliest dated wheellocks in existence, a small Augsburg Marquardt arquebus of Charles V d. 1530, and another, very finely executed, of identical provenance and dated 1531, plus a completely different combined wheellock and snap-tinderlock Munich arquebus in the Liège Musée de l'Armée, dated 1532, the etching by Ambrosius Gemlich, plus an early-1530's wheellock gun in the Royal Armouries Leeds and some detached mechanisms in the Dresden Armory.
Thus we have a line of datet or closely datable wheellocks from ca. 1525-35.

Some of the wheellock combination weapons in the Doges Palace in Venice may be from the 1520's or 1530's but they are not dated, and their earliest combined crossbow and gun seems so archaic that one might assume it was made in the first decade of the 16th century (ca. 1505, as one authority believed), which is probably not true ... I have always tentatively assigned a dating of '2nd to 3rd decade 16th c.' to them, and their axe and gun combination is dated 1551 ...

P.S. It is great to have finally found somebody with a good insight in early wheellocks!!!

Best,
Michael

Raf · 9th December 2013, 06:18 PM

Thanks Michael for a reflective and informative response. I think I agree with you. Individual areas or centers of production have to be viewed as having their own histories and its probably unsound to read to much into comparisons. Therefore I agree that ' primitive ' italian locks are probably in reality no earlier , or not much earlier than their more sophisticated German counterparts . But they do illustrate the conceptual stages in the development of the idea. I am familiar with the Palallazo Ducale crosbow / wheelocks but not their German counterparts . Any pictures ?

6th December 2013, 07:18 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The Met. Attached Images

7th December 2013, 10:05 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	With all these superb images - still nobody caring?! C'm on ... m Last edited by Matchlock; 7th December 2013 at 10:58 PM.

8th December 2013, 01:28 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Well, Raf, the mere fact that North Italian wheellocks do not have the spring-loaded push-button pan-cover release (German Drucknagel) is not per se a hint for their being the first made. The button is generally present in Germanic wheellocks from ca. 1530-1610. Not all German wheellocks feature that button though, and it is gone again and for good by the early 17th century. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 8th December 2013 at 03:06 PM.

9th December 2013, 02:09 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Oh yeah, Raf, I see and it's my turn to be sorry now. On the other hand, South Eastern European countries such as Hungaria - think of the Komorn swamps and River Danube finds! - or Romania went their own separate ways in developing spectacuar wheellocks as well. For more than 30 years, in my theories I have ardently pleaded for accepting parallel individual strategies/lines of access to the wheellock development, so I am all in your corner as far as this is concerned! I do bear my doubts though as to whether to look upon early Italian wheellocks as 'earlier in time' than Germanic ones. More archaic they may seem, no doubt. E.g., please cf. the locks of the earliest datable wheellock/crossbow combination in the Bavarian National Museum Munich, ca. 1521-26 (my personal guess is ca. 1525+, and I have handled it several times, alas without being allowed to take the lock out), and the earliest dated wheellocks in existence, a small Augsburg Marquardt arquebus of Charles V d. 1530, and another, very finely executed, of identical provenance and dated 1531, plus a completely different combined wheellock and snap-tinderlock Munich arquebus in the Liège Musée de l'Armée, dated 1532, the etching by Ambrosius Gemlich, plus an early-1530's wheellock gun in the Royal Armouries Leeds and some detached mechanisms in the Dresden Armory. Thus we have a line of datet or closely datable wheellocks from ca. 1525-35. Some of the wheellock combination weapons in the Doges Palace in Venice may be from the 1520's or 1530's but they are not dated, and their earliest combined crossbow and gun seems so archaic that one might assume it was made in the first decade of the 16th century (ca. 1505, as one authority believed), which is probably not true ... I have always tentatively assigned a dating of '2nd to 3rd decade 16th c.' to them, and their axe and gun combination is dated 1551 ... P.S. It is great to have finally found somebody with a good insight in early wheellocks!!! Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 9th December 2013 at 03:38 PM.

8th December 2013, 10:51 AM	#3
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Yes , very nice . But perhaps you could have mentioned what is really remarkable about the 1548 lock is that it has sliding pan covers with button release. All the others in this group have the earlier style of hooked pan cover where the cover and arm are in one piece. Presumably , as in the Met example ,it also has two piece interlocked sears. Thus establishing that all the classic features of wheelock design were , at least in Germany, present at this early date. Which begs the question whether early Italian wheelocks that don't have these features are earlier in date. Or whether the advantages of cheapness and simplicity outweighed the occasional expense of having to compensate wounded prostitutes.

8th December 2013, 11:36 PM	#5
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Sorry Michael. The point seems to have got lost somewhere. I wasnt suggesting that the push button pan release ; the presence or lack of it , was of any particular geographic or chronological significance. It seems from about 1535, and certainly by 1550 the wheelock in Germany had achieved all its classic features . But without , as far as I am aware much evidence of a development stage. In contrast , in early Italian wheelocks , we see a much wider range of solutions to problems that look more like a developing idea. Such as single locking bars (Da Vinci ) , matchlock style slot in wheel pancovers, exposed mechanisms etc.This is not a who invented the wheelock argument but it might be an argument for independant lines of development .The question was whether we should regard these Italian locks as being earlier than the earliest known German examples or simply that the Italians did things differently and for whatever reason were slower to adopt more mechanically sophisticated (and safer!) solutions. And yes , their is I think a simple theory why push button pan covers might have been considered a desirable neccesity on some classes of firearm and an optional extra on others....

9th December 2013, 06:18 PM	#7
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Thanks Michael for a reflective and informative response. I think I agree with you. Individual areas or centers of production have to be viewed as having their own histories and its probably unsound to read to much into comparisons. Therefore I agree that ' primitive ' italian locks are probably in reality no earlier , or not much earlier than their more sophisticated German counterparts . But they do illustrate the conceptual stages in the development of the idea. I am familiar with the Palallazo Ducale crosbow / wheelocks but not their German counterparts . Any pictures ?