The Original Dhu'l-Faqar

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ Note to Library. Not everyone will have at their fingertips much of the specialists content referred to in the thesis of Ahmedh. It is however apparent that four in particular are outstanding and it is this group that attracts my focus as , Al Kindi, Colonel Dr Zaky, al Biruni and Abdul Hameed al-Kateb.

Very clearly the trigger for the entire work is a combination of the authors brilliant tenacity coupled with the initial work by the famous early Islamic metallurgist (philosopher scientist mathematician etc) Al Kindi.

Col. Dr Zaky in our time has added such superb references and guides that his work is of an extremely useful calibre.

For very nice background detail please see http://www.history-science-technolog...ticles%205.htm

See http://books.google.com.om/books?id=...-_fMdeuepla1TM for some very interesting notes by Al Biruni on wootz and crucible steel.

Regards,
Ibrahiim ala Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all ~ Note to Library. Not everyone will have at their fingertips much of the specialists content referred to in the thesis of Ahmedh. It is however apparent that four in particular are outstanding and it is this group that attracts my focus as , Al Kindi, Colonel Dr Zaky, al Biruni and Abdul Hameed al-Kateb.

Very clearly the trigger for the entire work is a combination of the authors brilliant tenacity coupled with the initial work by the famous early Islamic metallurgist (philosopher scientist mathematician etc) Al Kindi.

Col. Dr Zaky in our time has added such superb references and guides that his work is of an extremely useful calibre.

For very nice background detail please see http://www.history-science-technolog...ticles%205.htm

See http://books.google.com.om/books?id=...-_fMdeuepla1TM for some very interesting notes by Al Biruni on wootz and crucible steel.

Regards,
Ibrahiim ala Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim!

Thanks a trillion for your post! It was very informative and direct to the point. I hope the other members would open and read the links that you've provided.

I thank you, once again, for the effort you've undertaken to read, review, and evaluate my work. Thanks a lot, Sir!

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams Ibrahiim!

Thanks a trillion for your post! It was very informative and direct to the point. I hope the other members would open and read the links that you've provided.

I thank you, once again, for the effort you've undertaken to read, review, and evaluate my work. Thanks a lot, Sir!

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

Salaams Ahmedh... All thanks to Al Kindi !! Wa anta !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ahmedh... All thanks to Al Kindi !! Wa anta !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

And to you too, of course, buddy!

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

[AhmedH]

Ariel said:

"What can be cautiously claimed from the voluminous circumstantial materials assembled by Ahmed is that, based on texts and recollections of ancient authors, Dhu'l Fakar COULD have been similar in its appearance to the Topkapi example, as opposed to the forked pattern uniformly agreed upon by generations of Islamic scholars. But in the absense of an iron-clad provenance tracing this sword backward from owner to owner, one cannot prove that this is THE TRUE Dhu'l Fakar. "

Please note that Topkapi doesn't hold any private collection...in fact, the Ottoman sultans -who later on also became caliphs of Islam- took these swords and other holy relics from the Abbasid caliphs who were in Cairo. Some of these relics were also stored in Makkah and in Yanbu' (in what is now Saudi Arabia). The storing of these relics in Makkah and Yanbu' was several years before the Mongols sacked Baghdad in 1258 C.E.

As for the Abbasids possessing Dhu'l-Faqar...well this was during the reign of Caliph al-Mahdi (r. 775 - 785 C.E.), or even towards the end of reign of al-Mansur (r. 754-775 C.E.); and since then, that great sword was in their possession; until the Abbasids renounced their right of the caliphate to either Sultan Selim I, or his son, Sultan Suleyman I. The two stories mentioned by al-Asma'i reveal that Dhu'l-Faqar was in possession of Caliph Harun al-Rashid (r. 786-809 C.E.). There are poems mentioning 9th century C.E. Caliphs possessing Dhu'l-Faqar.

BTW, Professor Gulru Necipoglu of Harvard University has told me in 2009 that during her Sabbatical leave to Topkapi Museum Archives, she was able to obtain archival data that reveals that THIS SWORD was indeed Dhu'l-Faqar, and that the Ottoman sultans and court knew that THIS SWORD was Dhu'l-Faqar INDEED. You could email her or even call her to verify what I've told you (and I think I've told you about that before, no?).

Remember again, that I didn't find this sword in some auction, or some private collection in a wealthy man's house or something...NO! I found this sword preserved in the Imperial Treasury Section in Topkapi Museum; that Museum in which the possessions of the LAST CALIPHS OF ISLAM are preserved...so, please understand.

Cheers,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[AhmedH]

Typing error: "Please note that Topkapi doesn't hold any private collection" should be corrected to: "Please note that Topkapi doesn't JUST hold any private collection".

I apologize for the typing mistake...and please bear in mind that English is but my second language!!!

[ariel]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

BTW, Professor Gulru Necipoglu of Harvard University has told me in 2009 that during her Sabbatical leave to Topkapi Museum Archives, she was able to obtain archival data that reveals that THIS SWORD was indeed Dhu'l-Faqar, and that the Ottoman sultans and court knew that THIS SWORD was Dhu'l-Faqar INDEED. You could email her or even call her to verify what I've told you (and I think I've told you about that before, no?).



Cheers,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Well, it gets curiosier and curiosier....

A Harvard professor finds archival data confirming this sword's identity as "True Dhul' Fakar" and, moreover, proof of conspiracy at the Ottoman Court to keep this fact secret, and she does not publish it ?????

I know quite a lot of Harvard faculty and every one of them would kill his/her grandmother for a publication of that caliber:-)

Hilmi Aydin, a curator of swords at Topkapi, waits 12 years for your article to be published and , - also!, - doesn't publish the sensational story?

Multiple other researchers who know the "secret of Dhu'l Fakar" are all still silent?

Well, Ahmed, they all must love you a lot and are ready to sacrifice their academic glory to give you a leg up....

Please, don't complain about academic conspiracies against you anymore : you are surrounded by unbelievably generous and supporting people.

[Andrew]

Point made, I would say. Let's move on, please.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ahmedh... All thanks to Al Kindi !! Wa anta !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

This is very important, but have you ever heard of Yemeni swords found in the burial places of medieval pre-Islamic Yemeni people; especially their notables?

BTW, what are the oldest Yemeni swords in Oman? Referring to which century? Dr. David Nicolle mentioned in one of his books an Arab straight double-edged sword from Oman referring to the 6th-7th century CE. I believe the book's name was "Yarmouk 636 AD".

Please explain more...

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams Ibrahiim,

This is very important, but have you ever heard of Yemeni swords found in the burial places of medieval pre-Islamic Yemeni people; especially their notables?

BTW, what are the oldest Yemeni swords in Oman? Referring to which century? Dr. David Nicolle mentioned in one of his books an Arab straight double-edged sword from Oman referring to the 6th-7th century CE. I believe the book's name was "Yarmouk 636 AD".

Please explain more...

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed .. Sadly no I have not heard of any Yemeni pre Islamic Burials but early Omani Tombs are well recorded. There was a big migration from the Mahrib region in Yemen which lasted for several hundred years parallel to the downfall, disrepair and decline of the Mahrib Dam in roughly the 3rd to 6th C.

One report I read of a sword coming from an Islamic burial site on Jebel Akhdar (a purely one off discovery) made a couple of hundred years ago..

Readers will note that it was not the done thing here to bury arms and armour with the dead. The old Omani Battle Sword you may find interesting since its local name is Sayf Yamaani.

Interestingly there is a place near Nizwa called Yemen in part of Izki town ...an old quarter... and it was my thought that weapons could have either come on the trade route from Hadramaut or were made in the region near Nizwa since that was the seat of Ibaathi Islam from 751 AD til today. Nizwa has always been a metalworking area....Copper and iron since they knew the hand bellows system of raising the temperature of the furnace.


My thread refers at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=omani+swords

You will see Yarmouk may refer to the University at which he was a faculty member? Yarmouk Jordan at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nicolle

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ahmed .. Sadly no I have not heard of any Yemeni pre Islamic Burials but early Omani Tombs are well recorded. There was a big migration from the Mahrib region in Yemen which lasted for several hundred years parallel to the downfall, disrepair and decline of the Mahrib Dam in roughly the 3rd to 6th C.

One report I read of a sword coming from an Islamic burial site on Jebel Akhdar (a purely one off discovery) made a couple of hundred years ago..

Readers will note that it was not the done thing here to bury arms and armour with the dead. The old Omani Battle Sword you may find interesting since its local name is Sayf Yamaani.

Interestingly there is a place near Nizwa called Yemen in part of Izki town ...an old quarter... and it was my thought that weapons could have either come on the trade route from Hadramaut or were made in the region near Nizwa since that was the seat of Ibaathi Islam from 751 AD til today. Nizwa has always been a metalworking area....Copper and iron since they knew the hand bellows system of raising the temperature of the furnace.


My thread refers at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=omani+swords

You will see Yarmouk may refer to the University at which he was a faculty member? Yarmouk Jordan at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nicolle

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thanks a lot for this. It seems that researchers must be as brave, bold, or even as audacious as the European researchers who dug out hundreds (if not many thousands) of European swords dating back to the Migration Period (400 - 750 CE) and the Viking Age (750 - 1066 CE); not to mention the Middle Ages (1066 - 1450 CE). Both al-Kindi and al-Biruni speak of Yemeni Quboori (i.e. tomb) swords being buried with their possessors in their graves. al-Kindi stated that these swords were anywhere from 1.75 to 2.75 lbs in weight, and their blade lengths were anywhere from 30 to 36 inches. Of course there are much more characteristics given in these two sources, and yes, these swords were pre-Islamic.

I would've really loved to hear any replies confirming excavation processes undergone by archaeologists that would've ended with the un-earthing of many of these priceless swords. Maybe such excavations may occur in the near future. Who knows???

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thanks a lot for this. It seems that researchers must be as brave, bold, or even as audacious as the European researchers who dug out hundreds (if not many thousands) of European swords dating back to the Migration Period (400 - 750 CE) and the Viking Age (750 - 1066 CE); not to mention the Middle Ages (1066 - 1450 CE). Both al-Kindi and al-Biruni speak of Yemeni Quboori (i.e. tomb) swords being buried with their possessors in their graves. al-Kindi stated that these swords were anywhere from 1.75 to 2.75 lbs in weight, and their blade lengths were anywhere from 30 to 36 inches. Of course there are much more characteristics given in these two sources, and yes, these swords were pre-Islamic.

I would've really loved to hear any replies confirming excavation processes undergone by archaeologists that would've ended with the un-earthing of many of these priceless swords. Maybe such excavations may occur in the near future. Who knows???

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed.. I hope something will turn up ! ... You know what its like when the archeologists want absolute proof which means actually digging up a body with a sword in his hand!! Any excavated swords that do appear I will try to source... Hadramaut I suspect holds many clues on the old Omani Battle Sword (Sayf Yamaani)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

PS..May I ask you to look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17934 as I need to check a translation on a sword.