Afghani Khyber swords : are there 2 varieties?

ariel · 1st November 2005, 04:53 AM

I meant to ask this question quite some time ago but forgot. Now is the time .
Compare these two Khybers:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

and

http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-AFGHAN-KHYBE...QQcmdZViewItem

Everything is the same but the handles, especially the pommels.
Are we seeing 2 different traditions?

Battara · 1st November 2005, 07:41 AM

Ariel, as always, you bring up a good point. I have wondered that too, noticing especially the pommels. One reminds me more of a choora and the other more kard like.

Yannis · 1st November 2005, 07:59 AM

There are 3 types

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=301

Ariel
The first type you show us it is the less common

TVV · 1st November 2005, 08:47 AM

Unfortunately I have only one khyber and it is from the most common type. With this type of pommel, there is a small metal round piece protruding from the tang. Does anyone know what it was used for?

Anyway, the example from Oriental Arms archive that Yannis has shown is really different, but in my opinion not so much because of the guard, which was added to it later due to military standards, but because of the hilt construction.
In Ashoka Arts sold items archive I was able to find this khyber, which is of the first type (as defined by Ariel's starting post, for lack of a better term), but nowhere I was able to find another one with the same hilt construction as the one posted by Yannis:

TVV · 1st November 2005, 09:42 AM

I really hope Adam Rose would not mind me putting a link to his on-line gallery here, but I think some of his photos would be really interesting for this particular thread.
First look at the pictures here, especially the first one:
http://www.awrswords.net/pics/thumbn...&cat=3&page=22
It appears that the third type of hilt is actually the standard military hilt, adopted by the Afghan army in the late 19th century, as it is found both on the rehilted khyber and the short sword.
Then here, on the second picture there is a comparison of two khyber and one choora hilts:
http://www.awrswords.net/pics/thumbn...p&cat=3&page=9
It is a really great photo which shows somewhat of a transition from one pommel type to another. Also, note the transition in size too. The less common khybers with the bird head pommel (that is how it appears to me and I can be completely mistaken in this assumption) are shorter. Adam's picture shows that clearly, and the first one on eBay (in the order the Ariel has placed the links) is less than 20" overall, while the other one is almost 30", or one and a half times longer. There seems to be a connection between blade legth and pommel shape: for some reason it appears that the shorter blades needed a larger pommel. Probably to assist the hand for withdrawing the knife after a thrust?

Rick · 1st November 2005, 06:03 PM

Couldn't this be simply a tribal/regional difference in hilt form ?

ariel · 2nd November 2005, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Couldn't this be simply a tribal/regional difference in hilt form ?

Sure.
That is exactly what I meant by my question.
Any info on the different origin?

Rick · 2nd November 2005, 03:13 AM

But a Google search on Afridi and other tribes of Afghanistan is fascinating stuff and could support this theory of tribal difference in design .

I don't personally believe that one hilt form evolved into the other .

RobT · 6th November 2005, 01:04 AM

I think Rick hit the nail on the head with his tribal/regional observation. To go even further I propose that we should view the Khyber blade style as native to a much larger area than Afghanistan and that its very practical and beautiful shape has been variously hilted to suit the disparate tastes of a wide variety of ethnic groups. After all, do we really have any hard evidence the this blade style orignated in Afghanistan? Could it not have just as easily come from Iran, Pakastan or North India? In support of this contention, I point to Figiel (On Damascus Steel) pg 69 which shows a " 'T' shaped back edge" Khyber style blade from "Northwest India" or "Persia" with an Indo/Muslim "Deli Shahi type" hilt. In addition to this, I am posting pictures of two Khyber style blades with hilts that differ from those already shown in this thread. The larger of the two features a 29" (73.66cm) blade and a 5" (12.7cm) horn hilt whose one piece scales look like a cross between a peshkabz and choora hilt. The smaller blade is 26" (66.4cm) long and has a 6" (15.24cm) wooden hilt that looks like an enlarged kard hilt.
Sincerely,
RobT

Rick · 6th November 2005, 01:43 AM

Well , if we take Figiel at his word then all Khybers could come from Persia as I have yet to see one with a ricasso .

I think along with a possible tribal variation we should also take into account the creativity of the smith who made the individual piece ; artistic license if you will for the smaller variations in hilt style and bolster .

not2sharp · 9th November 2005, 09:44 AM

Here is a similar all steel sword, most likely from India.

n2s

Rick · 9th November 2005, 03:28 PM

From the picture I'm seeing no T shaped spine , and a false edge ?
Aside from the hilt it looks a bit like a Kirach blade .

There certainly is a confusing variety in the E.W.'s of India .

Should we start to classify Khyber/Salawar Yataghans by blade features ?

Oh yes , and just when I had stated that I'd never seen a Khyber with a ricasso someone comes up with one .

http://www.ashokaarts.com/edgedweapons/ew-46.html

Jens Nordlunde · 9th November 2005, 05:10 PM

Sorry for joining so late. I believe the two different types Ariel shows are due to tribal differences, like stated earlier.

Rick, I think N2s is playing tricks on us, showing only part of the sword. I think I see a false edge too, and do I also see a ricasso?

I too was surprised to see a Khyper knife with a ricasso, and I am with you about the ‘artistic license’, but I don’t buy RobT’s suggestion about expanding the area, where these knifes was used, widely.

Sometimes Afghanistan was a province of Persia, and sometimes of India – it was even at times regarded part of India – not a province.

1st November 2005, 04:53 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Afghani Khyber swords : are there 2 varieties? I meant to ask this question quite some time ago but forgot. Now is the time . Compare these two Khybers: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 and http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-AFGHAN-KHYBE...QQcmdZViewItem Everything is the same but the handles, especially the pommels. Are we seeing 2 different traditions?

2nd November 2005, 03:13 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	No Sure Info But a Google search on Afridi and other tribes of Afghanistan is fascinating stuff and could support this theory of tribal difference in design . I don't personally believe that one hilt form evolved into the other .

6th November 2005, 01:04 AM	#9
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 494	Blade is Key? I think Rick hit the nail on the head with his tribal/regional observation. To go even further I propose that we should view the Khyber blade style as native to a much larger area than Afghanistan and that its very practical and beautiful shape has been variously hilted to suit the disparate tastes of a wide variety of ethnic groups. After all, do we really have any hard evidence the this blade style orignated in Afghanistan? Could it not have just as easily come from Iran, Pakastan or North India? In support of this contention, I point to Figiel (On Damascus Steel) pg 69 which shows a " 'T' shaped back edge" Khyber style blade from "Northwest India" or "Persia" with an Indo/Muslim "Deli Shahi type" hilt. In addition to this, I am posting pictures of two Khyber style blades with hilts that differ from those already shown in this thread. The larger of the two features a 29" (73.66cm) blade and a 5" (12.7cm) horn hilt whose one piece scales look like a cross between a peshkabz and choora hilt. The smaller blade is 26" (66.4cm) long and has a 6" (15.24cm) wooden hilt that looks like an enlarged kard hilt. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

1st November 2005, 07:41 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Ariel, as always, you bring up a good point. I have wondered that too, noticing especially the pommels. One reminds me more of a choora and the other more kard like.

1st November 2005, 07:59 AM	#3
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	There are 3 types http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=301 Ariel The first type you show us it is the less common

1st November 2005, 08:47 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Unfortunately I have only one khyber and it is from the most common type. With this type of pommel, there is a small metal round piece protruding from the tang. Does anyone know what it was used for? Anyway, the example from Oriental Arms archive that Yannis has shown is really different, but in my opinion not so much because of the guard, which was added to it later due to military standards, but because of the hilt construction. In Ashoka Arts sold items archive I was able to find this khyber, which is of the first type (as defined by Ariel's starting post, for lack of a better term), but nowhere I was able to find another one with the same hilt construction as the one posted by Yannis:

1st November 2005, 09:42 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	I really hope Adam Rose would not mind me putting a link to his on-line gallery here, but I think some of his photos would be really interesting for this particular thread. First look at the pictures here, especially the first one: http://www.awrswords.net/pics/thumbn...&cat=3&page=22 It appears that the third type of hilt is actually the standard military hilt, adopted by the Afghan army in the late 19th century, as it is found both on the rehilted khyber and the short sword. Then here, on the second picture there is a comparison of two khyber and one choora hilts: http://www.awrswords.net/pics/thumbn...p&cat=3&page=9 It is a really great photo which shows somewhat of a transition from one pommel type to another. Also, note the transition in size too. The less common khybers with the bird head pommel (that is how it appears to me and I can be completely mistaken in this assumption) are shorter. Adam's picture shows that clearly, and the first one on eBay (in the order the Ariel has placed the links) is less than 20" overall, while the other one is almost 30", or one and a half times longer. There seems to be a connection between blade legth and pommel shape: for some reason it appears that the shorter blades needed a larger pommel. Probably to assist the hand for withdrawing the knife after a thrust?

1st November 2005, 06:03 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Couldn't this be simply a tribal/regional difference in hilt form ?

6th November 2005, 01:43 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Well , if we take Figiel at his word then all Khybers could come from Persia as I have yet to see one with a ricasso . I think along with a possible tribal variation we should also take into account the creativity of the smith who made the individual piece ; artistic license if you will for the smaller variations in hilt style and bolster .

9th November 2005, 09:44 AM	#11
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Here is a similar all steel sword, most likely from India. n2s

9th November 2005, 03:28 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	From the picture I'm seeing no T shaped spine , and a false edge ? Aside from the hilt it looks a bit like a Kirach blade . There certainly is a confusing variety in the E.W.'s of India . Should we start to classify Khyber/Salawar Yataghans by blade features ? Oh yes , and just when I had stated that I'd never seen a Khyber with a ricasso someone comes up with one . http://www.ashokaarts.com/edgedweapons/ew-46.html

9th November 2005, 05:10 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Sorry for joining so late. I believe the two different types Ariel shows are due to tribal differences, like stated earlier. Rick, I think N2s is playing tricks on us, showing only part of the sword. I think I see a false edge too, and do I also see a ricasso? I too was surprised to see a Khyper knife with a ricasso, and I am with you about the ‘artistic license’, but I don’t buy RobT’s suggestion about expanding the area, where these knifes was used, widely. Sometimes Afghanistan was a province of Persia, and sometimes of India – it was even at times regarded part of India – not a province.