Before the Ball: Clod Shot of 1375 - the Earliest Lead Gun Ammunition!

Matchlock · 18th November 2013, 10:16 PM

Thank you so much, Alexender,

For sharing this unique Late-Gothic source of illustration!

As you mentioned, it is datable to ca. 1480, so the use of balls is shown, documenting a remarkable step forward compared to 14th c. clod shot.

On the other hand, of course, the loading procedure was all the more difficult as it required employing a very special thin iron stick to sort of center-string all the balls thru their holes in vertical succession!

Eight superimposed loads are depicted by Martini, which doubtlessly meant 'rapid automatic fire' as these shots must have been discharged within a short span of time of ca. 4-6 seconds once the foremost/upper had been ignited ... imagine such a dramatic psychologic impact when everyone else only had one single shot in their guns! Aiming the muzzle in the direction of the opponing army must have sufficed to wield a horrible amount of excessive firing power.

For clarity, please allow me to repost that 'photoshopped' image from your clever input!

Best wishes,
Michael/Mikhail

Matchlock · 19th November 2013, 11:37 AM

Together with the famous Tannenbergbüchse (Tannenberg gun barrel, now preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg), an iron ramrod and a piece of iron clod shot were found, the latter with a central hole!

As I have stated in another thread, I have proved on the basis of analogous stylistic comparison that the Tannenberg barrel (actually two specimens were found, the shorter one still loaded but the load having disappeared from the museum, the Hessisches Landesmuseum Darmstadt within the last 150 years!) is by no means as early as 'ca. 1390'.
Actually, it cannot have been made before ca. 1430, which makes it a contemporary of the Hussite Wars.

Now how come it was found in the ca. 1390 layer of earth?

That's easy to explain: as it was found deep down in the ground of a well the barrel, due to its slender form and relative weight the bronze barrel must have fallen down from considerable height, bottoming its way down into an older stratum. The fact that the castle of Tannenberg was destroyed in 1390 is neither compellingly nor logically any sort of proof of the exact age of the barrel. There is always the possibilty that, in the course of some smaller fight, these pieces fell into the well somewhen in the 15th century.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 19th November 2013, 06:15 PM

This is not clod shot but one of the rare 15th/early 16th century iron balls covered by a lead coating. I believe that, apart from the then high price for lead, this was mostly done to protect the inner walls of the relatively soft bronze gun barrels.

Found on detektorforum.de.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 20th November 2013, 03:16 PM

And here are some extremely rare instances of iron clod shot of rectangular or many-sided shape, all 14th to 16th century and all cast in molds, and all covered with a leaden coating to protect the relatively 'soft' inner walls of bronze barrels.

Breaking the sharp edges of an iron clod was the easiest and closest approach to the ball shape. I own a 14-sided specimen of enormous weight and size that clearly shows traces of a two-piece mold (images to follow).

From Mary Rose (sunk in 1545) finds we know that Henry VIII's army used such lead-clad iron shot to break the oak rumps of ships in sea fights; they have been analyzed by neutron tomography and Roentgen rays (see attachments).
The two attachments showing iron cubes dug up together with fragments of bronze cannon and the bottom piece of a bronze wallgun barrel are most interesting!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 20th November 2013, 06:18 PM

I should add that I marked one word blue in the news magazine article: eingeschmolzen, meaning melted into the lead as an integral part.

This of course is complete rubbish, both semantically and technically/logically. After close inspection of about 25 of these items, a considerable number of which are in my own study collection, I can tell with authority that, in all probability, the lead coating was cold-hammered around the core of either stone or iron!

Best,
Michael

Andi · 20th November 2013, 08:31 PM

Don't you think that the newtron-tomographic and radiograpic images of the cannonballs from Mary Rose may also suggest that the lead ball could have been casted arund the iron core? The position of the iron core on the edge of one side of the lead ball indicates to me that it was casted and the iron clod was positioned outside of the centre while laying on the bottom of form. Even when i guess that an experienced metal caster should be able to produce balls with a centered core.

Or is it possible that the emphasis was intentially dislocated from the center of weight? - Bus this wouldn't make any sense to me.

Matchlock · 21st November 2013, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andi

Don't you think that the newtron-tomographic and radiograpic images of the cannonballs from Mary Rose may also suggest that the lead ball could have been casted arund the iron core? The position of the iron core on the edge of one side of the lead ball indicates to me that it was casted and the iron clod was positioned outside of the centre while laying on the bottom of form. Even when i guess that an experienced metal caster should be able to produce balls with a centered core.

Or is it possible that the emphasis was intentially dislocated from the center of weight? - Bus this wouldn't make any sense to me.

Hi Andi,

There is of course more than one possibility how these iron cores could have been made.
All I can tell with authority is that mine was cast in a mold, and hammering them to such a smooth and perfect surface is just out of my mind (without intending to brag, I got a lot of smithing experience).
I will post images soon though.

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 17th September 2015, 02:32 PM

I bought these pieces a few weeks ago from two seperet metal detector enthausiast.
The first three where found near a castle in Boxmeer, The Netherlands (south east, near the river Maas).

The first one weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25,5mm when measured at the flatened side around the middle. This is the most likely bore caliber.

The second weighs 31grams and is 20mm in diameter.

The third has lost most of its stone core, but some smaller stones remain. It also weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25mm. This one differs from the first one because the first one most likely has just one single piece of stone while the third has multiple smaller stones and woould have acted like shot. A X-ray of some sort could show more evidence.

The fourth piece was found near Deventer, TheNetherlands near the river Ijsel.
It weighs 61 grams and has a 24mm diameter.

18th November 2013, 10:16 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you so much, Alexender, For sharing this unique Late-Gothic source of illustration! As you mentioned, it is datable to ca. 1480, so the use of balls is shown, documenting a remarkable step forward compared to 14th c. clod shot. On the other hand, of course, the loading procedure was all the more difficult as it required employing a very special thin iron stick to sort of center-string all the balls thru their holes in vertical succession! Eight superimposed loads are depicted by Martini, which doubtlessly meant 'rapid automatic fire' as these shots must have been discharged within a short span of time of ca. 4-6 seconds once the foremost/upper had been ignited ... imagine such a dramatic psychologic impact when everyone else only had one single shot in their guns! Aiming the muzzle in the direction of the opponing army must have sufficed to wield a horrible amount of excessive firing power. For clarity, please allow me to repost that 'photoshopped' image from your clever input! Best wishes, Michael/Mikhail Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 18th November 2013 at 10:38 PM.

19th November 2013, 11:37 AM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Together with the famous Tannenbergbüchse (Tannenberg gun barrel, now preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg), an iron ramrod and a piece of iron clod shot were found, the latter with a central hole! As I have stated in another thread, I have proved on the basis of analogous stylistic comparison that the Tannenberg barrel (actually two specimens were found, the shorter one still loaded but the load having disappeared from the museum, the Hessisches Landesmuseum Darmstadt within the last 150 years!) is by no means as early as 'ca. 1390'. Actually, it cannot have been made before ca. 1430, which makes it a contemporary of the Hussite Wars. Now how come it was found in the ca. 1390 layer of earth? That's easy to explain: as it was found deep down in the ground of a well the barrel, due to its slender form and relative weight the bronze barrel must have fallen down from considerable height, bottoming its way down into an older stratum. The fact that the castle of Tannenberg was destroyed in 1390 is neither compellingly nor logically any sort of proof of the exact age of the barrel. There is always the possibilty that, in the course of some smaller fight, these pieces fell into the well somewhen in the 15th century. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 19th November 2013 at 11:51 AM.

19th November 2013, 06:15 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	This is not clod shot but one of the rare 15th/early 16th century iron balls covered by a lead coating. I believe that, apart from the then high price for lead, this was mostly done to protect the inner walls of the relatively soft bronze gun barrels. Found on detektorforum.de. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 19th November 2013 at 06:27 PM.

20th November 2013, 03:16 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	And here are some extremely rare instances of iron clod shot of rectangular or many-sided shape, all 14th to 16th century and all cast in molds, and all covered with a leaden coating to protect the relatively 'soft' inner walls of bronze barrels. Breaking the sharp edges of an iron clod was the easiest and closest approach to the ball shape. I own a 14-sided specimen of enormous weight and size that clearly shows traces of a two-piece mold (images to follow). From Mary Rose (sunk in 1545) finds we know that Henry VIII's army used such lead-clad iron shot to break the oak rumps of ships in sea fights; they have been analyzed by neutron tomography and Roentgen rays (see attachments). The two attachments showing iron cubes dug up together with fragments of bronze cannon and the bottom piece of a bronze wallgun barrel are most interesting! Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 20th November 2013 at 03:40 PM.

17th September 2015, 02:32 PM	#8
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	Clodshot with stone core I bought these pieces a few weeks ago from two seperet metal detector enthausiast. The first three where found near a castle in Boxmeer, The Netherlands (south east, near the river Maas). The first one weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25,5mm when measured at the flatened side around the middle. This is the most likely bore caliber. The second weighs 31grams and is 20mm in diameter. The third has lost most of its stone core, but some smaller stones remain. It also weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25mm. This one differs from the first one because the first one most likely has just one single piece of stone while the third has multiple smaller stones and woould have acted like shot. A X-ray of some sort could show more evidence. The fourth piece was found near Deventer, TheNetherlands near the river Ijsel. It weighs 61 grams and has a 24mm diameter. Attached Images

20th November 2013, 06:18 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I should add that I marked one word blue in the news magazine article: eingeschmolzen, meaning melted into the lead as an integral part. This of course is complete rubbish, both semantically and technically/logically. After close inspection of about 25 of these items, a considerable number of which are in my own study collection, I can tell with authority that, in all probability, the lead coating was cold-hammered around the core of either stone or iron! Best, Michael

20th November 2013, 08:31 PM	#6
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Don't you think that the newtron-tomographic and radiograpic images of the cannonballs from Mary Rose may also suggest that the lead ball could have been casted arund the iron core? The position of the iron core on the edge of one side of the lead ball indicates to me that it was casted and the iron clod was positioned outside of the centre while laying on the bottom of form. Even when i guess that an experienced metal caster should be able to produce balls with a centered core. Or is it possible that the emphasis was intentially dislocated from the center of weight? - Bus this wouldn't make any sense to me.