New Member, New Keris

Sajen · 18th November 2013, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You might be correct on that Detlef. From the provided image i just can't tell.

Yes, you are correct, we need better pictures. From the provided pictures we also can't confirm if we have a Carita Kebrabon here.

But I am nearly sure that it will not be possible to see by this worn condition of the blade a very fine wos wutah pamor.

shadejoy · 18th November 2013, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, you are correct, we need better pictures. From the provided pictures we also can't confirm if we have a Carita Kebrabon here.

But I am nearly sure that it will not be possible to see by this worn condition of the blade a very fine wos wutah pamor.

It is similar to wos wutah, but the pamor on this Keris doesn't disperse in several groups and it covers almost the entire surface of the blade. The hue or contrast between the pamor and wilah is a lot less forceful than wos wutah, it really has a very soft tone. I'm sorry my friend, but I have to insist that this one is definitely Pedaringan Kebak.

Attached is the picture of another Keris that I have which Wos Wutah pamor.

However, I would really like to know whether this Keris is indeed a Carita Keprabon. What would be the things to look at?

Sajen · 19th November 2013, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadejoy

It is similar to wos wutah, but the pamor on this Keris doesn't disperse in several groups and it covers almost the entire surface of the blade. The hue or contrast between the pamor and wilah is a lot less forceful than wos wutah, it really has a very soft tone. I'm sorry my friend, but I have to insist that this one is definitely Pedaringan Kebak.

Attached is the picture of another Keris that I have which Wos Wutah pamor.

However, I would really like to know whether this Keris is indeed a Carita Keprabon. What would be the things to look at?

Hello Peter,

my understanding of pamor P.K. is a very fine pamor wos wutah which covers nearly the entire surface of the blade, look for example the in post # 1 shown example from Marco in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=pedaringan
Frankly said is the blade of your keris so worn that it is IMHO not possible to say if we have here a Pedaringan Kebak pamor, could be or could not be.
Maybe Alan can enlighten us.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 19th November 2013, 09:20 AM

Double post, sorry.

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2013, 11:56 AM

You're right Detlef, we can't call this pamor pedaringan kebak, but it might have been once, as with the dhapur, I simply cannot tell, because the blade is too worn. I believe that more than a few of us have experienced the extravagant descriptions of Indonesian purveyors of keris. Its just part of the process of education. All education costs money, and education in the keris is no different.

Sajen · 19th November 2013, 06:47 PM

Thank you Alan.

Hello Peter,

two other observations. First, by your later and much better pictures you can see that the blade isn't original to this scabbard. The "mouth" was made smaller with help from some sort of filler.
Second, the mendak isn't a Yogya one.
I really doubt that a keris like this coming from an abdi dalam. He will fit his keris with an adequate mendak and when the scabbard of his keris is broken he will let made a new one for the blade and don't let refit an old one.

Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia).

Sorry to speak open words to you and I hope you haven't pay to much for this keris. You have a nice and somewhat rare sheath form, a very nice mendak and so far I can see a nice hilt. The weakest part of this ensemble is indeed the blade.

Don't worry, we all have learned the hard way.

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2013, 09:52 PM

Detlef, I am more than prepared to accept that this keris originated with an abdi dalem.

I do not know the Ngayogyakarta situation, but I do know the Surakarta situation very well.

The people who occupy the position of adbi dalem in the karaton are a mix of people who are representative of the wider community. The work they do in the karaton is voluntary, and even when they rise to a high level in the hierarchy of the karaton the stipend that they receive is miniscule. Essentially, these are people who have strong traditional ties and commitments and who want to support the karaton and the continuation of Javanese tradition. In my experience, most of these people are most definitely not wealthy in the slightest degree.

In Solo there are always a number of abdi dalem, some of whom do have royal blood or impressive titles, who are amateur keris dealers. I can guarantee you that a visitor to the Karaton Surakarta who wants to buy a genuine old Majapahit era keris that has royal provenance will have not the slightest difficulty in acquiring one. All he needs to do is to let it be known. The seller will get hold of some degraded old keris from the alun-alun, or Pasar Triwindu, and present it with a story, and the deal is done. The keris will have come from the royal armory, or from some notable person, a certificate of authenticity will be arranged from some other abdi dalem at an inflated price.

Alternatively the keris might form a part of a multiple swapsi-changey deal where the seller has the opportunity to sell two or three items that progress in a chain resulting in eventual sale of the keris.

The Javanese people have had a very long time to develop the skills of manipulation for monetary reward. A thousand years ago they needed to manipulate their rulers in order to survive and prosper. Then the Dutch came along and they honed their skills on them. Then international tourism resulted in a flood of millionaires with their pockets full of money --- don't forget, we're all millionaires in the perception of people who have to live on less than $100 a month.

Probably the best way for a visitor to Jawa to look at a deal with a local is that he has made a contribution to the upkeep of a family for a few weeks or months. Its in the nature of a charitable donation.

But if the visitor is not willing to make a charitable donation, it is best that as a minimum he learn Bahasa Indonesia, and do some very serious study of the culture and society of Jawa before he visits.

Sajen · 20th November 2013, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, I am more than prepared to accept that this keris originated with an abdi dalem.

I do not know the Ngayogyakarta situation, but I do know the Surakarta situation very well. ..........

So could this part of the story Peter was told true.

Alan, I really like your explanations like this. It is like a film for my imagination.

Regards,

Detlef

shadejoy · 21st November 2013, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Alan.

Hello Peter,

two other observations. First, by your later and much better pictures you can see that the blade isn't original to this scabbard. The "mouth" was made smaller with help from some sort of filler.
Second, the mendak isn't a Yogya one.
I really doubt that a keris like this coming from an abdi dalam. He will fit his keris with an adequate mendak and when the scabbard of his keris is broken he will let made a new one for the blade and don't let refit an old one.

Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia).

Sorry to speak open words to you and I hope you haven't pay to much for this keris. You have a nice and somewhat rare sheath form, a very nice mendak and so far I can see a nice hilt. The weakest part of this ensemble is indeed the blade.

Don't worry, we all have learned the hard way.

Best regards,

Detlef

No no, you have all of my gratitude.

The Keris is without a doubt very old, as I mentioned earlier, to me the blade is real thin and fragile. The only way to make certain of things is really by getting your hand on it. I spent about $300 on this Keris and to tell you the truth, I'm not that upset. This Keris is one of the first set of collections that I have. As Alan said, education does not come cheap

And I try to be grateful of what I have.

My contact has very good relationship to a couple of Surakartan Abdi Dalems and a Yogyakartan ..or so he claimed. And he seems to be pretty vocal in the Keris world. He mentioned that he'd receive an honorary title (KRT) from the Sultan sometime next year.

Alan, that is some intricate way of doing business

But I can imagine that in the third world country.

Sajen · 21st November 2013, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadejoy

No no, you have all of my gratitude.

The Keris is without a doubt very old, as I mentioned earlier, to me the blade is real thin and fragile. The only way to make certain of things is really by getting your hand on it. I spent about $300 on this Keris and to tell you the truth, I'm not that upset. This Keris is one of the first set of collections that I have. As Alan said, education does not come cheap

And I try to be grateful of what I have.

Hello Peter,

yes, this blade has without doubt age. And I belive you that the blade is thin now. Good that you haven't pay to much.

Best regards,

Detlef

tunggulametung · 23rd November 2013, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

............

Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia).
.........................

Thank you Detlef

I may add that when the seller knows your quality he normally won't tell these stories and let you judge the object. So the moral is to educate yourself and be confident with it.

Sajen · 23rd November 2013, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Thank you Detlef

I may add that when the seller knows your quality he normally won't tell these stories and let you judge the object. So the moral is to educate yourself and be confident with it.

Hi Chandra,

I think you know exacly what I have meant! I have bought the a lot of my keris in Indonesia and I have had my education as well. And I have had a very good teatcher. And there are also very serious seller in Indonesia like you or some other ebay sellers. Sorry, never want offend you or other persons I have bought before from.

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 18th November 2013, 11:39 AM

This keris may have been a carita keprabon once, but regrettably the degree of erosion is now too great to permit anybody to say with certainty what the dhapur may have been before it lost so much detail.

The classification of Pajang I cannot confirm from these photographs,the pawakan does resemble Pajang in some respects, but in my opinion insufficiently so to permit agreement with this classification. Additionally, I cannot see any pamor akhodiyat in the blade, which is one of the gold-seal tells for Pajang.

Possibly not a bad start to a collection but I'd be inclined to take the description provided in Indonesia with a large grain of salt.

Oh yes, the pamor.

Mlumah means "laying down" and is the usual type of pamor that is made, examples of mlumah pamor are wos wutah, ngulit semangko, udan mas. Its an easy type of pamor to make. Miring pamor means "sideways", and to make this you start with the mlumah pamor billet and then forge the grain so it is at 90 degrees to the core of the blade when put in place. Miring pamor is difficult and expensive to make, and is the type of pamor used in all the great motifs, such ron duru, adeg, ganggeng kanyut etc.

19th November 2013, 09:20 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,269	Double post, sorry. Last edited by Sajen; 19th November 2013 at 12:19 PM.

19th November 2013, 11:56 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,044	You're right Detlef, we can't call this pamor pedaringan kebak, but it might have been once, as with the dhapur, I simply cannot tell, because the blade is too worn. I believe that more than a few of us have experienced the extravagant descriptions of Indonesian purveyors of keris. Its just part of the process of education. All education costs money, and education in the keris is no different.

19th November 2013, 06:47 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,269	Thank you Alan. Hello Peter, two other observations. First, by your later and much better pictures you can see that the blade isn't original to this scabbard. The "mouth" was made smaller with help from some sort of filler. Second, the mendak isn't a Yogya one. I really doubt that a keris like this coming from an abdi dalam. He will fit his keris with an adequate mendak and when the scabbard of his keris is broken he will let made a new one for the blade and don't let refit an old one. Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia). Sorry to speak open words to you and I hope you haven't pay to much for this keris. You have a nice and somewhat rare sheath form, a very nice mendak and so far I can see a nice hilt. The weakest part of this ensemble is indeed the blade. Don't worry, we all have learned the hard way. Best regards, Detlef

19th November 2013, 09:52 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,044	Detlef, I am more than prepared to accept that this keris originated with an abdi dalem. I do not know the Ngayogyakarta situation, but I do know the Surakarta situation very well. The people who occupy the position of adbi dalem in the karaton are a mix of people who are representative of the wider community. The work they do in the karaton is voluntary, and even when they rise to a high level in the hierarchy of the karaton the stipend that they receive is miniscule. Essentially, these are people who have strong traditional ties and commitments and who want to support the karaton and the continuation of Javanese tradition. In my experience, most of these people are most definitely not wealthy in the slightest degree. In Solo there are always a number of abdi dalem, some of whom do have royal blood or impressive titles, who are amateur keris dealers. I can guarantee you that a visitor to the Karaton Surakarta who wants to buy a genuine old Majapahit era keris that has royal provenance will have not the slightest difficulty in acquiring one. All he needs to do is to let it be known. The seller will get hold of some degraded old keris from the alun-alun, or Pasar Triwindu, and present it with a story, and the deal is done. The keris will have come from the royal armory, or from some notable person, a certificate of authenticity will be arranged from some other abdi dalem at an inflated price. Alternatively the keris might form a part of a multiple swapsi-changey deal where the seller has the opportunity to sell two or three items that progress in a chain resulting in eventual sale of the keris. The Javanese people have had a very long time to develop the skills of manipulation for monetary reward. A thousand years ago they needed to manipulate their rulers in order to survive and prosper. Then the Dutch came along and they honed their skills on them. Then international tourism resulted in a flood of millionaires with their pockets full of money --- don't forget, we're all millionaires in the perception of people who have to live on less than $100 a month. Probably the best way for a visitor to Jawa to look at a deal with a local is that he has made a contribution to the upkeep of a family for a few weeks or months. Its in the nature of a charitable donation. But if the visitor is not willing to make a charitable donation, it is best that as a minimum he learn Bahasa Indonesia, and do some very serious study of the culture and society of Jawa before he visits.

18th November 2013, 11:39 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,044	This keris may have been a carita keprabon once, but regrettably the degree of erosion is now too great to permit anybody to say with certainty what the dhapur may have been before it lost so much detail. The classification of Pajang I cannot confirm from these photographs,the pawakan does resemble Pajang in some respects, but in my opinion insufficiently so to permit agreement with this classification. Additionally, I cannot see any pamor akhodiyat in the blade, which is one of the gold-seal tells for Pajang. Possibly not a bad start to a collection but I'd be inclined to take the description provided in Indonesia with a large grain of salt. Oh yes, the pamor. Mlumah means "laying down" and is the usual type of pamor that is made, examples of mlumah pamor are wos wutah, ngulit semangko, udan mas. Its an easy type of pamor to make. Miring pamor means "sideways", and to make this you start with the mlumah pamor billet and then forge the grain so it is at 90 degrees to the core of the blade when put in place. Miring pamor is difficult and expensive to make, and is the type of pamor used in all the great motifs, such ron duru, adeg, ganggeng kanyut etc.