New Member, New Keris

Sajen · 17th November 2013, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

In Jawa specifically there are sheaths for formal dress wear (Ladrang) as well as everyday use (Gayaman) and some folks also have certain sheaths just for storage. Traditionally i am not sure if a reshaped wrongko like the one this keris is in would be culturally acceptable for public wear, but perhaps someone here would know the answer to that.

Hello David,

like written before, I don't think that the wrongko in question is a reshaped one but a taggalan wrongko but to be certain we will really need better pictures.
For wrongko or warangka tanggalan see "Ensiklopedi Keris", page 458/459.

Regards,

Detlef

Marcokeris · 17th November 2013, 08:55 PM

I agree to Sajen 100%
Peter is possible to see the top the blade?
Thanks

shadejoy · 18th November 2013, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

I agree to Sajen 100%
Peter is possible to see the top the blade?
Thanks

Absolutely, but I must ask you to please excuse the quality of the pictures. Amateurish is an overstatement of my photographic skills.

The Wilah and the pamor seem to split at the edge of the Keris. I wonder if it's due to frequent acid exposure.

Marcokeris · 19th November 2013, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadejoy

Absolutely, but I must ask you to please excuse the quality of the pictures. Amateurish is an overstatement of my photographic skills.

The Wilah and the pamor seem to split at the edge of the Keris. I wonder if it's due to frequent acid exposure.

Thanks Peter

David · 17th November 2013, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

like written before, I don't think that the wrongko in question is a reshaped one but a taggalan wrongko but to be certain we will really need better pictures.
For wrongko or warangka tanggalan see "Ensiklopedi Keris", page 458/459.

Regards,

Detlef

You might be correct on that Detlef. From the provided image i just can't tell.

Sajen · 18th November 2013, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You might be correct on that Detlef. From the provided image i just can't tell.

Yes, you are correct, we need better pictures. From the provided pictures we also can't confirm if we have a Carita Kebrabon here.

But I am nearly sure that it will not be possible to see by this worn condition of the blade a very fine wos wutah pamor.

shadejoy · 18th November 2013, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, you are correct, we need better pictures. From the provided pictures we also can't confirm if we have a Carita Kebrabon here.

But I am nearly sure that it will not be possible to see by this worn condition of the blade a very fine wos wutah pamor.

It is similar to wos wutah, but the pamor on this Keris doesn't disperse in several groups and it covers almost the entire surface of the blade. The hue or contrast between the pamor and wilah is a lot less forceful than wos wutah, it really has a very soft tone. I'm sorry my friend, but I have to insist that this one is definitely Pedaringan Kebak.

Attached is the picture of another Keris that I have which Wos Wutah pamor.

However, I would really like to know whether this Keris is indeed a Carita Keprabon. What would be the things to look at?

Sajen · 19th November 2013, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadejoy

It is similar to wos wutah, but the pamor on this Keris doesn't disperse in several groups and it covers almost the entire surface of the blade. The hue or contrast between the pamor and wilah is a lot less forceful than wos wutah, it really has a very soft tone. I'm sorry my friend, but I have to insist that this one is definitely Pedaringan Kebak.

Attached is the picture of another Keris that I have which Wos Wutah pamor.

However, I would really like to know whether this Keris is indeed a Carita Keprabon. What would be the things to look at?

Hello Peter,

my understanding of pamor P.K. is a very fine pamor wos wutah which covers nearly the entire surface of the blade, look for example the in post # 1 shown example from Marco in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=pedaringan
Frankly said is the blade of your keris so worn that it is IMHO not possible to say if we have here a Pedaringan Kebak pamor, could be or could not be.
Maybe Alan can enlighten us.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 19th November 2013, 09:20 AM

Double post, sorry.

A. G. Maisey · 19th November 2013, 11:56 AM

You're right Detlef, we can't call this pamor pedaringan kebak, but it might have been once, as with the dhapur, I simply cannot tell, because the blade is too worn. I believe that more than a few of us have experienced the extravagant descriptions of Indonesian purveyors of keris. Its just part of the process of education. All education costs money, and education in the keris is no different.

Sajen · 19th November 2013, 06:47 PM

Thank you Alan.

Hello Peter,

two other observations. First, by your later and much better pictures you can see that the blade isn't original to this scabbard. The "mouth" was made smaller with help from some sort of filler.
Second, the mendak isn't a Yogya one.
I really doubt that a keris like this coming from an abdi dalam. He will fit his keris with an adequate mendak and when the scabbard of his keris is broken he will let made a new one for the blade and don't let refit an old one.

Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia).

Sorry to speak open words to you and I hope you haven't pay to much for this keris. You have a nice and somewhat rare sheath form, a very nice mendak and so far I can see a nice hilt. The weakest part of this ensemble is indeed the blade.

Don't worry, we all have learned the hard way.

Best regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 18th November 2013, 11:39 AM

This keris may have been a carita keprabon once, but regrettably the degree of erosion is now too great to permit anybody to say with certainty what the dhapur may have been before it lost so much detail.

The classification of Pajang I cannot confirm from these photographs,the pawakan does resemble Pajang in some respects, but in my opinion insufficiently so to permit agreement with this classification. Additionally, I cannot see any pamor akhodiyat in the blade, which is one of the gold-seal tells for Pajang.

Possibly not a bad start to a collection but I'd be inclined to take the description provided in Indonesia with a large grain of salt.

Oh yes, the pamor.

Mlumah means "laying down" and is the usual type of pamor that is made, examples of mlumah pamor are wos wutah, ngulit semangko, udan mas. Its an easy type of pamor to make. Miring pamor means "sideways", and to make this you start with the mlumah pamor billet and then forge the grain so it is at 90 degrees to the core of the blade when put in place. Miring pamor is difficult and expensive to make, and is the type of pamor used in all the great motifs, such ron duru, adeg, ganggeng kanyut etc.

shadejoy · 18th November 2013, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You might be correct on that Detlef. From the provided image i just can't tell.

Noted, here are (I hope..) the better pics of the sheath.

I also can't tell as I am truly clueless whether the Wrangka had been reworked or not. But the wrangka is definitely similar to Detlefs.

And lastly, the wrangka has a peculiar wood grain pattern. I think it's what people call as 'Pelet'. The many shapes and figures of Pelets are supposed to signify something, if I'm not mistaken.

~Peter

19th November 2013, 09:20 AM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,269	Double post, sorry. Last edited by Sajen; 19th November 2013 at 12:19 PM.

17th November 2013, 08:55 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I agree to Sajen 100% Peter is possible to see the top the blade? Thanks

19th November 2013, 11:56 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,044	You're right Detlef, we can't call this pamor pedaringan kebak, but it might have been once, as with the dhapur, I simply cannot tell, because the blade is too worn. I believe that more than a few of us have experienced the extravagant descriptions of Indonesian purveyors of keris. Its just part of the process of education. All education costs money, and education in the keris is no different.

19th November 2013, 06:47 PM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,269	Thank you Alan. Hello Peter, two other observations. First, by your later and much better pictures you can see that the blade isn't original to this scabbard. The "mouth" was made smaller with help from some sort of filler. Second, the mendak isn't a Yogya one. I really doubt that a keris like this coming from an abdi dalam. He will fit his keris with an adequate mendak and when the scabbard of his keris is broken he will let made a new one for the blade and don't let refit an old one. Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia). Sorry to speak open words to you and I hope you haven't pay to much for this keris. You have a nice and somewhat rare sheath form, a very nice mendak and so far I can see a nice hilt. The weakest part of this ensemble is indeed the blade. Don't worry, we all have learned the hard way. Best regards, Detlef

18th November 2013, 11:39 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,044	This keris may have been a carita keprabon once, but regrettably the degree of erosion is now too great to permit anybody to say with certainty what the dhapur may have been before it lost so much detail. The classification of Pajang I cannot confirm from these photographs,the pawakan does resemble Pajang in some respects, but in my opinion insufficiently so to permit agreement with this classification. Additionally, I cannot see any pamor akhodiyat in the blade, which is one of the gold-seal tells for Pajang. Possibly not a bad start to a collection but I'd be inclined to take the description provided in Indonesia with a large grain of salt. Oh yes, the pamor. Mlumah means "laying down" and is the usual type of pamor that is made, examples of mlumah pamor are wos wutah, ngulit semangko, udan mas. Its an easy type of pamor to make. Miring pamor means "sideways", and to make this you start with the mlumah pamor billet and then forge the grain so it is at 90 degrees to the core of the blade when put in place. Miring pamor is difficult and expensive to make, and is the type of pamor used in all the great motifs, such ron duru, adeg, ganggeng kanyut etc.