Luristan Sword

ariel · 31st October 2005, 12:02 AM

Over the years I have noticed a steady stream of "Luristan swords" on e-bay. There is virtually no day without yet another 2-3 being offered for sale, and all are advertised as 8th-10th century BCE.
Either these Luristani people had more swords per capita than there are guns in Texas or...
Are these real? Most of them? Some of them?
Any connection with the Chinese bronze "Warring States Swords" for $0.99 with $200 shipping?

Battara · 31st October 2005, 04:38 AM

I am aware that there are some "Luristan" pieces that are reproductions that are patina'd green. How to tell the difference? Not my area, exactly.

Miyamoto · 31st October 2005, 07:45 AM

Not only luristan swords, but also hapenned to mahairas, ecc. I think that some of them are certainly repros...

Chinese warring state bronze are 99,99% repors. The same sellers also sales Katanas for 1$... naturally fakes all the way. It is a quite a problem to find good japanese stuff with thoose flooding over ebay.

Rivkin · 31st October 2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miyamoto

Not only luristan swords, but also hapenned to mahairas, ecc. I think that some of them are certainly repros...

Chinese warring state bronze are 99,99% repors. The same sellers also sales Katanas for 1$... naturally fakes all the way. It is a quite a problem to find good japanese stuff with thoose flooding over ebay.

?????

Never been a problem, afaik. There are like 3 types of fakes, all of them primitive, all of them appear in large numbers, and 99.99% of them goes under 250$.

ariel · 31st October 2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

?????

Never been a problem, afaik. There are like 3 types of fakes, all of them primitive, all of them appear in large numbers, and 99.99% of them goes under 250$.

The Luristani swords are:
1.Primitive ( well, they are 3000 years old, aren't they?)
2. Plentiful
3. Cost in excess of $1000.
Two out of three is not bad, but the question is not answered: what proportion of them are fakes?
I just can not imagine that one can easily buy a 3,000 year-old sword with no effort whatsoever. How many 1,000 year-old Japanese swords can one find outside the Imperial collection? How often do we see a real Crusade-era European sword for sale? Early Islamic? Hun? Mongolian? Pre-Mughal Indian?These were all highly militaristic societies but their plethora of weapons seemed to have vanished from the market just over several centuries.
Why are Luristani swords so easily available (money question aside)?

Jens Nordlunde · 31st October 2005, 04:52 PM

Well, I am afraid Ariel is right, there are an enormous amount of Luristan fakes circulating. Already about thirty to fourty years ago the amount was big, both as amount but also as a problem for the collectors, so imagine what it must be now, and unfortunately the fakers have learned, over the years, to make the fakes better and better.

Rivkin · 31st October 2005, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The Luristani swords are:
1.Primitive ( well, they are 3000 years old, aren't they?)
2. Plentiful

I've meant japanese fakes have never been a problem due to the poor quality and mass production... Luristan swords - I thought that all "ancient" bronze is easily faked.

Jens Nordlunde · 31st October 2005, 06:20 PM

Yes Rivkin, I am afraid you are right, but the experts to prove it, are not easy to find.

Miyamoto · 31st October 2005, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

?????

Never been a problem, afaik. There are like 3 types of fakes, all of them primitive, all of them appear in large numbers, and 99.99% of them goes under 250$.

Rivkin,

I was referring to japanese swords. If you type katana in the ebay search engine there will be 10.000 listnigs and only 5-10 of them original shinshinto, shinto or koto... Rather a hard task for a newby to find the correct ones out

No comment about their quality... The person who saw an original even once should be able to spot a chinese fake even in the gallery view...

I assume that there is an even bigger probblem with cinese warring states swords, 'cos the sellers are the same and there is less difference between two old pieces of bronze comparing to Nihonto blades, wich they will never be skilfull enough to reproduce...

About luristani and all antique blades: It is a verry hard task even for professionals to distinguish a skillfully made antique bronze sword froma a fake. Antique swords like that are verry verry easy to reproduce. I think that the only answer about the age is testing with... active carbon? if I'm not wrong. Familiar with that? I think that it is verry costly if someone offers such service. How is that matter where you live?

TVV · 1st November 2005, 12:21 AM

From my archeologist friends I know that carbon dating applies only to organic matter. Non-organic, such as bronze, will need a different method. However, if you can afford to pay for a special lab analysis of an ancient bronze weapon, you probably would not need to look at eBay at all, as you would be buying only from reputable dealers. Actually, as far as ancient weapons go, I personally stay away from the eBay ones. Just my thoughts.

Battara · 1st November 2005, 06:32 AM

The problem with the Luristan or any bronze artifact is the style and patina that anyone who knows what they are doing can fake. Legitimate restorers try to repatinate bronzes that have been damaged and this protects the piece. With ancient bronzes, one can only patinate so much and then it is no different at first glance than one done 3000 years ago.

31st October 2005, 12:02 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Luristan Sword Over the years I have noticed a steady stream of "Luristan swords" on e-bay. There is virtually no day without yet another 2-3 being offered for sale, and all are advertised as 8th-10th century BCE. Either these Luristani people had more swords per capita than there are guns in Texas or... Are these real? Most of them? Some of them? Any connection with the Chinese bronze "Warring States Swords" for $0.99 with $200 shipping?

31st October 2005, 04:38 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I am aware that there are some "Luristan" pieces that are reproductions that are patina'd green. How to tell the difference? Not my area, exactly.

31st October 2005, 07:45 AM	#3
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Not only luristan swords, but also hapenned to mahairas, ecc. I think that some of them are certainly repros... Chinese warring state bronze are 99,99% repors. The same sellers also sales Katanas for 1$... naturally fakes all the way. It is a quite a problem to find good japanese stuff with thoose flooding over ebay.

31st October 2005, 04:52 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well, I am afraid Ariel is right, there are an enormous amount of Luristan fakes circulating. Already about thirty to fourty years ago the amount was big, both as amount but also as a problem for the collectors, so imagine what it must be now, and unfortunately the fakers have learned, over the years, to make the fakes better and better.

31st October 2005, 06:20 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Rivkin, I am afraid you are right, but the experts to prove it, are not easy to find.

1st November 2005, 12:21 AM	#10
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	From my archeologist friends I know that carbon dating applies only to organic matter. Non-organic, such as bronze, will need a different method. However, if you can afford to pay for a special lab analysis of an ancient bronze weapon, you probably would not need to look at eBay at all, as you would be buying only from reputable dealers. Actually, as far as ancient weapons go, I personally stay away from the eBay ones. Just my thoughts.

1st November 2005, 06:32 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	The problem with the Luristan or any bronze artifact is the style and patina that anyone who knows what they are doing can fake. Legitimate restorers try to repatinate bronzes that have been damaged and this protects the piece. With ancient bronzes, one can only patinate so much and then it is no different at first glance than one done 3000 years ago.