The Original Dhu'l-Faqar

[ariel]

I am delighted that the mystery of Dhu'l-Fakar was finally solved. Congratulations! The only thing left is to prove it.


I am looking forward to the pictures.

There is not much sense for us guessing the features: this had been done for centuries with no agreement between the scholars.

Please show the pics and the supporting materials.
With best wishes.

[AhmedH]

Here's the article that I've composed as an appendix of my master's dissertation in defense of the identification of the original Dhu'l-Faqar:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Here's the article that I've composed as an appendix of my master's dissertation in defense of the identification of the original Dhu'l-Faqar:

Salaams AhmedH~ I have so far read about one third of your attachment and I have to say I find it brilliant... not only in the way you have openly accepted the mistakes and pitfalls of others but in the logical and informative structure of your dissertation. This is a very real pleasure to read. I look forward to reading more and it is a delight to see the references of the great masters being used so effectively...Brilliant !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Dear Ibrahiim,

Thanks a lot for your very positive and encouraging review of my article so far! I felt very flattered! Thanks a lot!

I hope you enjoy reading the rest of it.

Thanks again for your very positive reply. Any questions you ask me shall be answered thoroughly; as best as I could.

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

Here's the article that I've composed as an appendix of my master's dissertation in defense of the identification of the original Dhu'l-Faqar:

Salaams AhmedH, I have a much clearer understanding now of how you have arrived at what I believe is an extremely important discovery. I have boiled it down to solid research based upon a handful of specialists...

The Big Four. viz;

Al Kindi, Colonel Dr Zaky, al Biruni, Abdul Hameed al-Kateb.

Al Kindi was the real information linkage and the trigger.
Col Dr Zaky the magnifying glass whose brilliant work helped you clear up much of the previous confusion and the other two experts Al Biruni and Abdel Hameed al Kateb whose vital doctrines and research cemented the whole theory together. It is indeed remarkable that with so many other specialists in the mixture that you were able to stay on track and with so many having differing views (as experts often have) it is a miracle you have remained focused.

I mentioned a handful ... normally reserved for up to 5 or so names... Yours is the 5th name for without your amazing insight and vision this gem of information could have remained buried... lost in plain sight ...forever.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams AhmedH, I have a much clearer understanding now of how you have arrived at what I believe is an extremely important discovery. I have boiled it down to solid research based upon a handful of specialists...

The Big Four. viz;

Al Kindi, Colonel Dr Zaky, al Biruni, Abdul Hameed al-Kateb.

Al Kindi was the real information linkage and the trigger.
Col Dr Zaky the magnifying glass whose brilliant work helped you clear up much of the previous confusion and the other two experts Al Biruni and Abdel Hameed al Kateb whose vital doctrines and research cemented the whole theory together. It is indeed remarkable that with so many other specialists in the mixture that you were able to stay on track and with so many having differing views (as experts often have) it is a miracle you have remained focused.

I mentioned a handful ... normally reserved for up to 5 or so names... Yours is the 5th name for without your amazing insight and vision this gem of information could have remained buried... lost in plain sight ...forever.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim!

I'm very thankful indeed for your review. I also agree 110% with all what you said...and I felt very flattered for you adding my name to the other BIG FOUR! That was very encouraging and flattering indeed.

I really wish I could have been able to send you my whole masters dissertation; as it's full of lots and lots of new insights regarding the Arab swords in 550 to 1300 CE; especially the Yamaani sword that you prefer (and which I prefer too!).

BTW, though I'm a strong believer in inspiration, I also believe in luck. If we add to those a strong love for the subject and great devotion to it; coupled with hard work...then the composition or results shall be very good, GOD willing.

Once again, I genuinely believe that I have come to the right place; when I submitted my article to this very great forum.

Thanks a trillion, Ibrahiim! I owe you, buddy!

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams AhmedH, I have a much clearer understanding now of how you have arrived at what I believe is an extremely important discovery. I have boiled it down to solid research based upon a handful of specialists...

The Big Four. viz;

Al Kindi, Colonel Dr Zaky, al Biruni, Abdul Hameed al-Kateb.

Al Kindi was the real information linkage and the trigger.
Col Dr Zaky the magnifying glass whose brilliant work helped you clear up much of the previous confusion and the other two experts Al Biruni and Abdel Hameed al Kateb whose vital doctrines and research cemented the whole theory together. It is indeed remarkable that with so many other specialists in the mixture that you were able to stay on track and with so many having differing views (as experts often have) it is a miracle you have remained focused.

I mentioned a handful ... normally reserved for up to 5 or so names... Yours is the 5th name for without your amazing insight and vision this gem of information could have remained buried... lost in plain sight ...forever.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams all,

I would like to add that the Arabs regarded the best swords to be those that were "made of Indian [crucible] steel and were of Yemeni forge". Even the mentioning of "Hindi", "Muhannad", or "Hunduwani" for swords didn't mean that these swords were Indian; but rather "made of Indian crucible steel (or what is now known as wootz)".

Of course, Indian crucible steel had its disadvantages; especially that it became brittle in very cold temperatures (at -13 degrees Celsius, sword blades made of wootz when hitting armor would break like glass). This was noted by the early Islamic warriors in their campaigns in the Caucasus and Central Asia; something that made many of those warriors seek sword blades made of milder steel, or even pattern-welded blades.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Ahmed for adding these important and intriguing observations on these swords with information most helpful in better understanding them. It seems I had heard of the wootz blades becoming terribly brittle and literally shattering in some cases, but wasn't clear in recalling the circumstances. Also confusing to me was the reference to Arab swords 'from' India, and your explanation is most helpful.
As you noted in your previous post, what is important in our discussion is constructive material, comments and questions.

All best regards,
Jim

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you very much Ahmed for adding these important and intriguing observations on these swords with information most helpful in better understanding them. It seems I had heard of the wootz blades becoming terribly brittle and literally shattering in some cases, but wasn't clear in recalling the circumstances. Also confusing to me was the reference to Arab swords 'from' India, and your explanation is most helpful.
As you noted in your previous post, what is important in our discussion is constructive material, comments and questions.

All best regards,
Jim

My pleasure, my duty, Jim. Actually, the study of medieval arms and armor; especially medieval Arab swords, was something that captured my interest for many years. That there are more than 100 Arab swords dating back to 600-1260 CE in Topkapi, Askeri Museum, and some private collections is something very intriguing for serious study. Add to that the many great sources in the form of treatises, historical narrations, poems, etc; all that makes the study of Arab swords in the aforementioned period enjoyable; since the data is available and exists in abundance.

As ever,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[AhmedH]

I believe I'm having problems sending the attachment that includes the photos and figures. They say it's too large (1.76 MB). I wish I were able to divide this file into 3 smaller files, but I don't know how.

Any help, please?

Thanks a lot in advance.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by AhmedH

I believe I'm having problems sending the attachment that includes the photos and figures. They say it's too large (1.76 MB). I wish I were able to divide this file into 3 smaller files, but I don't know how.

Any help, please?

Thanks a lot in advance.

If you email the files to me at iain.norman@live.com I'd be happy to split them up for you.

[Iain]

Having seen the files and determining with Ahmed the best way to make these available is a weblink.

This ZIP file contains the illustrations and the article.

[kronckew]

file gives error that it is missing split parts, ie the . z01 & .z02...

[Iain]

Originally Posted by kronckew

file gives error that it is missing split parts, ie the . z01 & .z02...

Apologies, I just edited the link. Can you have a try now and let me know if it's working for you?

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Iain

Apologies, I just edited the link. Can you have a try now and let me know if it's working for you?

worked perfectly. thanks.

interesting illustrations. the dissertation makes sense. all previous info i've seen seemed to indicate a real split tip, or 2 tined forked tip. which would be somewhat unpractical for sword. the one illustrated solves the problem and appears to be a fine weapon such as would have been loved by the prophet (peace upon him). shame the original scabbard & harness did not survive as well.

[Horsa]

I visited the Topkapi. Legendary arms and armour exhibit and one of the best collections of European arms and armour too that was taken during their Empire - however many of the mystical objects could not possibly be as old as claimed. For example the staff of Moses and turban of Joseph were in remarkably good condition for millenia old objects.

These items would have been miraculously "found" during the days of the Ottoman empire and used by the Empire as symbols and to gain legitimacy.

Didn't the sword dissapear when the Mongols sacked Baghdad? Last century during the communist takeover of Mongolia, Ghengis's original horsehair also dissapeared in the same manner. Possibly burned by some communists eager to get rid of such national symbols. This morning I was reading about all the objects looted from Egypt's museums during the current upheavals. It is sad when these priceless objects are lost forever.

Maybe it is the original sword. Who knows?

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by Horsa

I visited the Topkapi. Legendary arms and armour exhibit and one of the best collections of European arms and armour too that was taken during their Empire - however many of the mystical objects could not possibly be as old as claimed. For example the staff of Moses and turban of Joseph were in remarkably good condition for millenia old objects.

These items would have been miraculously "found" during the days of the Ottoman empire and used by the Empire as symbols and to gain legitimacy.

Didn't the sword dissapear when the Mongols sacked Baghdad? Last century during the communist takeover of Mongolia, Ghengis's original horsehair also dissapeared in the same manner. Possibly burned by some communists eager to get rid of such national symbols. This morning I was reading about all the objects looted from Egypt's museums during the current upheavals. It is sad when these priceless objects are lost forever.

Maybe it is the original sword. Who knows?

Please read the article, and you'll find answers to all your questions. No need to hurry, sir. Please, read it thoroughly and enjoy!

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

[AhmedH]

I believe I have been able to overcome this silly problem. Here we go:

[AJ1356]

One should take the claims made by the Topkapi museum with a few grains doubt. I was there a few weeks ago and they were making some really bold and unfounded claims specially in the sacred treasures area. To me it was all a show to sell tickets, they have nothing backing those claims, specially the claims made in regards to the artifacts belonging to the Prophet (PBUH), his companions and his family.
One sword that made me almost laugh was this HUGE 5 ft something tall and about a foot wide one resembling ones shown in Final Fantasy video game. It is claimed that it belonged to the 3rd Khalif Hazrat e Osman, now every Muslim knows the he was not a warrior nor a tall man, why go a claim that huge sword belonged to one who was of a smaller build?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

I am delighted that the mystery of Dhu'l-Fakar was finally solved. Congratulations! The only thing left is to prove it.


I am looking forward to the pictures.

There is not much sense for us guessing the features: this had been done for centuries with no agreement between the scholars.

Please show the pics and the supporting materials.
With best wishes.

Salaams ariel ~ I agree absolutely. It is clear that these swords said to be of such provenance have been worked on by great and famous craftsmen but such are the alterations that no one can reverse engineer what they originally may have looked like. Most scholars simply accept that "they are what they are". It would be a brave researcher indeed who would try to process the answer with any degree of accuracy.. As you say... "prove it" !

AhmedH Maybe you are that brave researcher!! and to support your claims I'm sure you will present some interesting Topkapi and other photographs which I also look forward to seeing.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Salaams to all,

I'm extremely sorry, but the file regarding the photos and figures seems impossible (for me) to send to this great and wonderful site. I believe and hope that the file containing the article itself has been able to be sent. It just takes many hours to be approved.

So, if you're really interested in seeing and studying the photos and figures, I could send you the file that contains them via email. So, please do not hesitate to send me your email addresses and I'll be more than glad to send you the file containing the photos and figures.

I repeat my apology, but I've done my best to send that file to this great site. Not being that capable in computer skills, I must admit my partial failure!

Please accept my apologies and limitations.

[ariel]

Topkapi collection number 2/3775 was mentioned by AhmedH.


Yucel's book shows # 21/3775, a supposedly Umayyad sword, supposedly attributable to Uthman ibn Affan.

Are we talking about the same one?

[AhmedH]

Originally Posted by ariel

Topkapi collection number 2/3775 was mentioned by AhmedH.


Yucel's book shows # 21/3775, a supposedly Umayyad sword, supposedly attributable to Uthman ibn Affan.

Are we talking about the same one?

Yes, it's that sword that is erroneously attributed to either Caliph Uthman ibn Affan or Osman I.

Please read the article that I've submitted.

Thanks a lot in advance.