Question about integral bolsters

ariel · 13th November 2013, 11:42 PM

I have a Wedung with a - kind of- integral bolster.

Emanuel · 14th November 2013, 03:57 AM

And I have some sikin from Aceh with wonderful crown integral bolsters. Fine in the south-east Asian context, but not from the Mediterranean or Ottoman sphere.

Any west/central Asian examples?

Yes, the integral bolster has a medieval tradition in western European and Italian cutlery. But why and how its transfer to heavy long swords in Ottoman regions when the standard sabre design was good enough?

Why blades with heavy integral bolsters in Anatolia, the Balkans, and Algeria, coincident with a 300-year tradition of thin flat blades with separate ornamental ferules?

So, in the Mediterranean (and Black Sea) basins we have:
- Maybe Kuban/Circassian/Tatar knives and sabres - very early
- Genovese knives - early
- Anatolian yataghan with Turkush ribbon - early/middle
- Kabyle flyssa - middle
- Bulgarian karakulak - middle/late
- Ionian yataghan with T-pommel - late
- Pontic Laz bicag - very late

All coastal areas within the Ottoman sphere of influence and on the Genovese/Italian trade routes.

Emanuel

Emanuel · 14th November 2013, 01:16 PM

"The Art of the Muslim Knight" includes examples of Mughal, Rajasthani, and Persian kards from the 17th century with integral bolster construction. There are also examples of Ottoman kard and fork sets with integral bolsters, dating from that time.

The feature was well used in small cutlery by the 17th century then but again, how and why was it transferred to large sword blades?

Timo Nieminen · 14th November 2013, 09:28 PM

Hmm. We could call the karakulak, flyssa, and yataghan knives rather than swords (in the same sense that the European sword-sized messer is a "knife"). Then the question is why use integral bolsters on very large knives as well as swords. Or rather, why use something different.

I think it is enough explanation for why these are constructed differently to sabres: there're built like giant knives.

How heavy do yataghans get? My only large example has a blade the length of a typical katana blade, and is all of 400g. The grip is lighter than the original, I think. Originally, it might have been as heavy as 500g! But I have a shorter one which manages 465g; it has a really thick blade.

Emanuel · 14th November 2013, 10:34 PM

Thank you for staying on this Timo

I disagree with you on the typology of these weapons, but that's irrelevant so I won't get into that.

On the subject of weight, I've been thinking about it. Specifically, do you need a substantial bolster as you go up in weight and length? Was the blade liable to snap at the handle?

A typical large two-handed messer was something like 1m long, and 1.8kg ( including blade and long slab hilt) and didn't have a bolster.

I haven't weighted my flyssas but the longest has a 110cm long, 1.5cm thick blade and certainly feels heavier than 1kg.

Timo Nieminen · 21st November 2013, 04:32 AM

I don't think you need a substantial (or integral) bolster as the weapon gets longer and heavier. Among yataghan-like weapons, the heavier ones are more likely to have an integral bolster, but I think that's because they have heavier hilts and thicker blades at the base. That is, the extra weight follows from having the integral bolster, rather than the other way around.

The meeting of tang and blade is a potential weak point, and blades do break there. A blade with an integral bolster is less likely to break there. If the integral-bolster heavy-bladed weapons are used as weapon/tools like khukuri, then it might be important for strength. If it's a "pure" weapon, less important.

A. G. Maisey · 21st November 2013, 04:51 AM

I'm not going to talk about ethnic knives, or historic knives, I'm going comment only on why a maker would choose to use an integral bolster rather than a bolster or guard that is pinned and soldered.

If you pin and solder you need to drill through the blade.

Holes in blades create a weak point.

A bolster forged from, or fire welded to the blade has the opposite effect:- it strengthens the blade.

Its not necessarily because knives have a habit of breaking at the junction of blade and hilt, its just that an integral bolster is superior construction to a bolster pinned and soldered.

Then there is the factor of craftsman preference. If the maker is primarily a smith, it is easier for him to make a blade with an integral bolster than it is for him to fiddle around with drill/pin/solder. If the maker is primarily a cutler, it easier for him to drill/pin/solder than to consider an integral bolster. The cutler will get a forging that he needs to turn into a knife, a flat blade without the lump that needs to be filed to shape for a bolster is easier for him to work with.

I have made many blades in damascus with integral bolsters, I made custom knives and blades for a fairly lengthy period, about 20 years from memory, and I was an early member of the Australian Knife Makers Guild. I was primarily a smith, not a cutler.

13th November 2013, 11:42 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have a Wedung with a - kind of- integral bolster.

14th November 2013, 03:57 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	And I have some sikin from Aceh with wonderful crown integral bolsters. Fine in the south-east Asian context, but not from the Mediterranean or Ottoman sphere. Any west/central Asian examples? Yes, the integral bolster has a medieval tradition in western European and Italian cutlery. But why and how its transfer to heavy long swords in Ottoman regions when the standard sabre design was good enough? Why blades with heavy integral bolsters in Anatolia, the Balkans, and Algeria, coincident with a 300-year tradition of thin flat blades with separate ornamental ferules? So, in the Mediterranean (and Black Sea) basins we have: - Maybe Kuban/Circassian/Tatar knives and sabres - very early - Genovese knives - early - Anatolian yataghan with Turkush ribbon - early/middle - Kabyle flyssa - middle - Bulgarian karakulak - middle/late - Ionian yataghan with T-pommel - late - Pontic Laz bicag - very late All coastal areas within the Ottoman sphere of influence and on the Genovese/Italian trade routes. Emanuel

14th November 2013, 01:16 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	"The Art of the Muslim Knight" includes examples of Mughal, Rajasthani, and Persian kards from the 17th century with integral bolster construction. There are also examples of Ottoman kard and fork sets with integral bolsters, dating from that time. The feature was well used in small cutlery by the 17th century then but again, how and why was it transferred to large sword blades?

14th November 2013, 09:28 PM	#4
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Hmm. We could call the karakulak, flyssa, and yataghan knives rather than swords (in the same sense that the European sword-sized messer is a "knife"). Then the question is why use integral bolsters on very large knives as well as swords. Or rather, why use something different. I think it is enough explanation for why these are constructed differently to sabres: there're built like giant knives. How heavy do yataghans get? My only large example has a blade the length of a typical katana blade, and is all of 400g. The grip is lighter than the original, I think. Originally, it might have been as heavy as 500g! But I have a shorter one which manages 465g; it has a really thick blade.

14th November 2013, 10:34 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thank you for staying on this Timo I disagree with you on the typology of these weapons, but that's irrelevant so I won't get into that. On the subject of weight, I've been thinking about it. Specifically, do you need a substantial bolster as you go up in weight and length? Was the blade liable to snap at the handle? A typical large two-handed messer was something like 1m long, and 1.8kg ( including blade and long slab hilt) and didn't have a bolster. I haven't weighted my flyssas but the longest has a 110cm long, 1.5cm thick blade and certainly feels heavier than 1kg.

21st November 2013, 04:32 AM	#6
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	I don't think you need a substantial (or integral) bolster as the weapon gets longer and heavier. Among yataghan-like weapons, the heavier ones are more likely to have an integral bolster, but I think that's because they have heavier hilts and thicker blades at the base. That is, the extra weight follows from having the integral bolster, rather than the other way around. The meeting of tang and blade is a potential weak point, and blades do break there. A blade with an integral bolster is less likely to break there. If the integral-bolster heavy-bladed weapons are used as weapon/tools like khukuri, then it might be important for strength. If it's a "pure" weapon, less important.

21st November 2013, 04:51 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,079	I'm not going to talk about ethnic knives, or historic knives, I'm going comment only on why a maker would choose to use an integral bolster rather than a bolster or guard that is pinned and soldered. If you pin and solder you need to drill through the blade. Holes in blades create a weak point. A bolster forged from, or fire welded to the blade has the opposite effect:- it strengthens the blade. Its not necessarily because knives have a habit of breaking at the junction of blade and hilt, its just that an integral bolster is superior construction to a bolster pinned and soldered. Then there is the factor of craftsman preference. If the maker is primarily a smith, it is easier for him to make a blade with an integral bolster than it is for him to fiddle around with drill/pin/solder. If the maker is primarily a cutler, it easier for him to drill/pin/solder than to consider an integral bolster. The cutler will get a forging that he needs to turn into a knife, a flat blade without the lump that needs to be filed to shape for a bolster is easier for him to work with. I have made many blades in damascus with integral bolsters, I made custom knives and blades for a fairly lengthy period, about 20 years from memory, and I was an early member of the Australian Knife Makers Guild. I was primarily a smith, not a cutler.