Iraq Dagger

Aurangzeb · 30th October 2005, 10:30 PM

I guess this daggers origen will remain a mystery?

The use of brass and 'X' shapes still seems african. Perhaps Mali, a dagger made by locals in imatation of the arab jambiya/shbariya. HELP!

Hal Siegel · 31st October 2005, 03:02 AM

Howdy folks, and thanks, Mark - I'm glad you like the dagger even though it's giving you headaches!

Here's a picture of the dagger in question:

My original (and current) estimation is northern African somewhere ... the Berber guesstimate was Tom Hyle's thoughts on the origin.

I don't think it's a shabriya variation, the blade shape is really quite jambaic, and even the most extremely curved of the sabriya (nice collection!) doesn't really come close to being the same.

As to Iraq and Marsh Arab - also, I think not. Their hilts are sort of triangularish as shown in Mark's new whatsit, but the Marsh daggers really have a more dart/arrowhead shape to them rather than the clearly defined triangle.

Here's a Marsh dagger shown along with a modern stainless-steel bladed repro:

The blade curve/shape of the Marsh jambiya is quite similar to the blade on Mark's Mystery, but I think the pommel shape rules out Iraq in specific - although now that I look at all of these pictures together I'm certainly willing to narrow down my estimation of "nothern Africa" to eastern northern Africa (ish!)

Aurangzeb · 31st October 2005, 04:14 AM

I think in the end it will be a glorious accomplishment to pin it ot a country.

In my opinion the fact it has a crude feel to it as opposed to other nort african daggers which seem refined, and seems to be a crude imatation of arab jambiya's with some saharan-african influences like in Mali or Mauritania. One of the reasons I say Mali is the fact that Mali had strong arab ties during it's history but seems to use brass on a lot of there weapons.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 31st October 2005, 10:05 PM

Heres a link I foumd. Look at the dagger from mali half way down the page the desighns on the hilt are idententical, three lines then a "X".

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=west+africa

Mark...

TVV · 31st October 2005, 11:04 PM

Wrong thread, please delete.

Aurangzeb · 1st November 2005, 01:06 AM

You must have missed it it's far down on the page.

Aurangzeb · 1st November 2005, 10:55 PM

Just relised it shows a little Tuareg influence, just a little.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 2nd November 2005, 09:17 PM

Hello all!

I found some Tuareg silver jewlery with a similer 'X' motif on it I will post links when I find it again, but chould this really be Tuareg? I never saw a any curved Tuareg weapons so I am very confuesed.

I really hope someone out there in forum land is sure where yhis came from, this is driving me crazy!

Mayday Mayday this thread is going down like a lead rake!

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 4th November 2005, 04:32 AM

Chould it be Tuareg, Malian, or Mauritanian?

I will not let this thread die easily.

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 4th November 2005, 11:04 PM

Hi All!

Found a link on Oriental-Arms with a tokouba with a similer pattern on it's hilt.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=606

Mark...

Aurangzeb · 8th November 2005, 02:16 AM

Here is an old thread I found the first arm dagger shown shows a similer pattern, perhaps it's origen is Egypt. Just thrownig ideas into the pool.

Mark...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=Sudan

Aurangzeb · 27th December 2005, 09:36 PM

Hello All!

On page 96 figure 56C in the book "Islamic Weapons Maghreb to Moghul" is a dagger that is identified as Palestinian and bers a resemblance some what to my dagger. I still feal North African though.

Mark...

Radu Transylvanicus · 9th January 2006, 09:56 AM

In admiration to your persuasiveness in this quest for truth here is my humble opinion for what is worth:
It clearly stands out as a crude copy of a Jambyia. That being given and the similarity with the craftsmanship of the solid brass grip "Telek" the Touareg version of the "arm dagger" and the African blades, I would say its belongs to the Touareg or at least to an Islamic black tribe of the Sub-Sahara.
I looked also at the Tirri's book but I would always be careful when considering him for the final verdict. If to consider his book take a look rather at page 54 (# 30) and 56 (# 32A) on the Touareg section instead of the so called Palestinian dagger.

Also the option of a simple "souvenir market" with no blue blood is a solid posibility

.

31st October 2005, 11:04 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Wrong thread, please delete. Last edited by TVV; 1st November 2005 at 12:21 AM.

9th January 2006, 09:56 AM	#13
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	INMHO to Aurangzeb In admiration to your persuasiveness in this quest for truth here is my humble opinion for what is worth: It clearly stands out as a crude copy of a Jambyia. That being given and the similarity with the craftsmanship of the solid brass grip "Telek" the Touareg version of the "arm dagger" and the African blades, I would say its belongs to the Touareg or at least to an Islamic black tribe of the Sub-Sahara. I looked also at the Tirri's book but I would always be careful when considering him for the final verdict. If to consider his book take a look rather at page 54 (# 30) and 56 (# 32A) on the Touareg section instead of the so called Palestinian dagger. Also the option of a simple "souvenir market" with no blue blood is a solid posibility . Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 9th January 2006 at 12:00 PM.

30th October 2005, 10:30 PM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	I guess this daggers origen will remain a mystery? The use of brass and 'X' shapes still seems african. Perhaps Mali, a dagger made by locals in imatation of the arab jambiya/shbariya. HELP!

31st October 2005, 03:02 AM	#2
Hal Siegel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 15	Howdy folks, and thanks, Mark - I'm glad you like the dagger even though it's giving you headaches! Here's a picture of the dagger in question: My original (and current) estimation is northern African somewhere ... the Berber guesstimate was Tom Hyle's thoughts on the origin. I don't think it's a shabriya variation, the blade shape is really quite jambaic, and even the most extremely curved of the sabriya (nice collection!) doesn't really come close to being the same. As to Iraq and Marsh Arab - also, I think not. Their hilts are sort of triangularish as shown in Mark's new whatsit, but the Marsh daggers really have a more dart/arrowhead shape to them rather than the clearly defined triangle. Here's a Marsh dagger shown along with a modern stainless-steel bladed repro: The blade curve/shape of the Marsh jambiya is quite similar to the blade on Mark's Mystery, but I think the pommel shape rules out Iraq in specific - although now that I look at all of these pictures together I'm certainly willing to narrow down my estimation of "nothern Africa" to eastern northern Africa (ish!)

31st October 2005, 04:14 AM	#3
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	I think in the end it will be a glorious accomplishment to pin it ot a country. In my opinion the fact it has a crude feel to it as opposed to other nort african daggers which seem refined, and seems to be a crude imatation of arab jambiya's with some saharan-african influences like in Mali or Mauritania. One of the reasons I say Mali is the fact that Mali had strong arab ties during it's history but seems to use brass on a lot of there weapons. Mark...

31st October 2005, 10:05 PM	#4
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Heres a link I foumd. Look at the dagger from mali half way down the page the desighns on the hilt are idententical, three lines then a "X". http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=west+africa Mark...

1st November 2005, 01:06 AM	#6
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	You must have missed it it's far down on the page.

1st November 2005, 10:55 PM	#7
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Just relised it shows a little Tuareg influence, just a little. Mark...

2nd November 2005, 09:17 PM	#8
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello all! I found some Tuareg silver jewlery with a similer 'X' motif on it I will post links when I find it again, but chould this really be Tuareg? I never saw a any curved Tuareg weapons so I am very confuesed. I really hope someone out there in forum land is sure where yhis came from, this is driving me crazy! Mayday Mayday this thread is going down like a lead rake! Mark...

4th November 2005, 04:32 AM	#9
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Chould it be Tuareg, Malian, or Mauritanian? I will not let this thread die easily. Mark...

4th November 2005, 11:04 PM	#10
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi All! Found a link on Oriental-Arms with a tokouba with a similer pattern on it's hilt. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=606 Mark...

8th November 2005, 02:16 AM	#11
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Here is an old thread I found the first arm dagger shown shows a similer pattern, perhaps it's origen is Egypt. Just thrownig ideas into the pool. Mark... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=Sudan

27th December 2005, 09:36 PM	#12
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hello All! On page 96 figure 56C in the book "Islamic Weapons Maghreb to Moghul" is a dagger that is identified as Palestinian and bers a resemblance some what to my dagger. I still feal North African though. Mark...