large Keris

A. G. Maisey · 14th October 2013, 08:39 PM

No, this false pamor would probably not have been done for any other reason but to make the keris more attractive as a souvenir, as you say David, not for the local market, but for the visitors. In fact, I feel that a close examination would show that this blade might have a pamor sanak. In the close up I think I can see one area of blade where there is a distinct separation between core and outer layers, so it just might have outer layers of plain iron, which by their nature would have needed to be welded and folded, which technically becomes pamor sanak.

I don't think we can call this type of keris a dance keris. Yeah, sure, this type or any other type might be used as a dance prop, but that is not its purpose. In fact, in Bali these days a lot of Balinese wear Javanese keris. You see the people whose job it is to keep order in public gatherings wearing low quality Javanese gayamans, I'd guess these are owned by the local banjar or banjars and given to these Harmony Keepers for the duration of the event.

For the future of this blade I'm with Jean & David:- get rid of the lies and let it be itself.

Iliad · 14th October 2013, 09:52 PM

Greetings,
Thanks to all who have contributed their expert opinions. I am quite happy to accept that the Keris is of souvenir quality, as I did not pay much for it. But, it looks great as a display piece!
Best,
Brian

GIO · 15th October 2013, 02:54 PM

My personal opinion:
clean the blade and, if possible, etch it. A real pamor may appear.
Throw away hilt and scabbard. You will easily find a better hilt, but not a scabbard, also due to the size of the blade.
The mendak (better "UWER" - thanks for correcting me, Jean) is good.

VANDOO · 15th October 2013, 04:43 PM

I AGREE THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE OLDER THAN THE FITTINGS AND THE FAKE PARMOR ADDS NOTHING TO THE KERIS SO REMOVING IT WOULD BE GOOD. THE SCABBARD AND HANDLE ARE FAIRLY GOOD EXAMPLES OF BALI WOOD CARVING AND THE STYLE HAS BEEN AROUND IN BALI FOR AT LEAST AS FAR BACK AS THE MID 1960'S PERHAPS LONGER. THE STYLE OF FULLY CARVING UNDOUTABLY WILL LOOK UGLY TO THOSE WHO LIKE THE MORE UNADORNED FITTINGS ON KERIS FROM BALI AND ELSEWHERE.
I DO NOT KNOW IF SUCH SCABBARDS AND HANDLES ARE USED BY LOCALS IN BALI OR IF THEY ARE STRICTLY FOR TOURISTS ONLY BUT THEY DO LOOK COOL TO ME.

T. Koch · 15th October 2013, 04:47 PM

Never knew that the backside of these wrangkas were carved with such nice motives.

Thanks for sharing!

David · 15th October 2013, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

My personal opinion:
clean the blade and, if possible, etch it. A real pamor may appear.
Throw away hilt and scabbard. You will easily find a better hilt, but not a scabbard, also due to the size of the blade.
The mendak (better "UWER" - thanks for correcting me, Jean) is good.

GIO, while you are most certainly welcome to your personal opinion you may want to consider putting this into Brian's perspective. He is a general collector of weapons who only very casually collects the occassinal keris. He paid very little for this particular example. I doubt he is looking to spend much more to create an "ideal" example of a Bali keris. Given the quality of the blade itself it also wouldn't make sense even to me as someone who specializes in the collection of keris to throw much money at redressing such a blade when it has serviceable dress already. Your suggestion that he throw away the hilt and sheath seems a bit extreme to me. Cleaning and restraining the blade certainly seems worth the effort to return some dignity to this keris, but i am in agreement with Alan that even this apparently touristy style of dress has a place in a well rounded collection. This particular one is actually of better carving than most that i see of this type on the market. I am still left unsure of the origins of this particular dress type and don't know if it was ever acceptable for indigenous ethnographic usage, but as VANDOO points out it is a style that has been in existence for at least 50 years. To properly redress this blade would cost hundreds of dollars and Brian seems happy with the look of the ensemble as a display piece so i can't see why he would want to spend more money than he paid for the thing redressing it.

Sajen · 15th October 2013, 08:52 PM

First, I am in absolute agreement with David regarding redressing the blade in question.

While we still discuss this keris I have bought a keris in a similar dress/sarung in a little bit better form and with a good blade IMHO. See here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Kris...vip=true&rt=nc
By this I have the same question like David (who as well own a keris in a similar sarung): Was a keris in such a sarung ever acceptable for Bali people to wear it? Or was it only a way to sell a single blade, equal which quality, to tourists?

David · 15th October 2013, 10:06 PM

I have often seen halfway decent blades fitted into this type of dress. This may well be a way to cheaply sheath a naked blade in order to sell it. I do, however, have a variation on this sheath form which seems to clearly have been made for the blade, not simply refitted. So the question remains...

Iliad · 16th October 2013, 01:13 AM

David,
Thank you for your helpful and encouraging words.
You are correct in describing me as a general collector of weapons. Here in New Zealand I would be described as a "Magpie" collector. A Magpie is a bird which compulsively collects bright and shiny objects and takes them back to the nest. They can't be eaten, so are of no practical use to the bird, so I guess that he just looks at them with bird pleasure!
Could any other forum members be described as "Magpies"?
Best,
Brian

Jean · 16th October 2013, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Cleaning and restaining the blade certainly seems worth the effort to return some dignity to this keris, but i am in agreement with Alan that even this apparently touristy style of dress has a place in a well rounded collection. This particular one is actually of better carving than most that i see of this type on the market. I am still left unsure of the origins of this particular dress type and don't know if it was ever acceptable for indigenous ethnographic usage, but as VANDOO points out it is a style that has been in existence for at least 50 years.

Just for reference, this is what Mr David Van Duuren thinks about this style of scabbard.

Regards

Henk · 16th October 2013, 11:15 AM

A lot of opinions here. I also agree completely with David. I would keep this keris as it is. If possible a proper stain of the blade to get the real pamor out otherwise i would leave it as it is.

When i was a youngster and put my first steps on collecting, i used to visit my neighbours of indonesian origin. They had such a keris on the wall. It was more in the style of the keris Detleff showed us. But i still remember that the backside of the scabbard was carved as well. I had the honor to handle this keris a few times. Probably because of my admiration of this keris. But this family believed also in the power of this keris. They where convinced this keris had a spirit and also made rituals to the keris. I also do remember that the Mrs told me that a friend of the family offered her a big amount of money for the keris. She didn't sell it because it was her family's heirloom.

So what is tourist?

Now i also have such a keris in my collection with a good balinese blade. In my opinion when the carving isn't done too sloppy such a keris fits well in a collection.

GIO · 16th October 2013, 11:44 AM

My proposal was not to spend much money: a decent Cecekahan or Bebondolan hilt is currently sold on ebay for about $ 50.00, and cleaning the blade with pineapple or lemon juce would bring out the pamor at practically no cost.
This said, I respect everybody's opinion and leave to the owner to make what he consider better for him. Now he has all information to decide.

14th October 2013, 09:52 PM	#2
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Large Keris Greetings, Thanks to all who have contributed their expert opinions. I am quite happy to accept that the Keris is of souvenir quality, as I did not pay much for it. But, it looks great as a display piece! Best, Brian

15th October 2013, 08:52 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	First, I am in absolute agreement with David regarding redressing the blade in question. While we still discuss this keris I have bought a keris in a similar dress/sarung in a little bit better form and with a good blade IMHO. See here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Kris...vip=true&rt=nc By this I have the same question like David (who as well own a keris in a similar sarung): Was a keris in such a sarung ever acceptable for Bali people to wear it? Or was it only a way to sell a single blade, equal which quality, to tourists? Attached Images

14th October 2013, 08:39 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	No, this false pamor would probably not have been done for any other reason but to make the keris more attractive as a souvenir, as you say David, not for the local market, but for the visitors. In fact, I feel that a close examination would show that this blade might have a pamor sanak. In the close up I think I can see one area of blade where there is a distinct separation between core and outer layers, so it just might have outer layers of plain iron, which by their nature would have needed to be welded and folded, which technically becomes pamor sanak. I don't think we can call this type of keris a dance keris. Yeah, sure, this type or any other type might be used as a dance prop, but that is not its purpose. In fact, in Bali these days a lot of Balinese wear Javanese keris. You see the people whose job it is to keep order in public gatherings wearing low quality Javanese gayamans, I'd guess these are owned by the local banjar or banjars and given to these Harmony Keepers for the duration of the event. For the future of this blade I'm with Jean & David:- get rid of the lies and let it be itself.

15th October 2013, 02:54 PM	#3
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 328	My personal opinion: clean the blade and, if possible, etch it. A real pamor may appear. Throw away hilt and scabbard. You will easily find a better hilt, but not a scabbard, also due to the size of the blade. The mendak (better "UWER" - thanks for correcting me, Jean) is good.

15th October 2013, 04:43 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE OLDER THAN THE FITTINGS AND THE FAKE PARMOR ADDS NOTHING TO THE KERIS SO REMOVING IT WOULD BE GOOD. THE SCABBARD AND HANDLE ARE FAIRLY GOOD EXAMPLES OF BALI WOOD CARVING AND THE STYLE HAS BEEN AROUND IN BALI FOR AT LEAST AS FAR BACK AS THE MID 1960'S PERHAPS LONGER. THE STYLE OF FULLY CARVING UNDOUTABLY WILL LOOK UGLY TO THOSE WHO LIKE THE MORE UNADORNED FITTINGS ON KERIS FROM BALI AND ELSEWHERE. I DO NOT KNOW IF SUCH SCABBARDS AND HANDLES ARE USED BY LOCALS IN BALI OR IF THEY ARE STRICTLY FOR TOURISTS ONLY BUT THEY DO LOOK COOL TO ME.

15th October 2013, 04:47 PM	#5
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Never knew that the backside of these wrangkas were carved with such nice motives. Thanks for sharing!

15th October 2013, 10:06 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I have often seen halfway decent blades fitted into this type of dress. This may well be a way to cheaply sheath a naked blade in order to sell it. I do, however, have a variation on this sheath form which seems to clearly have been made for the blade, not simply refitted. So the question remains...

16th October 2013, 01:13 AM	#9
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	David, Thank you for your helpful and encouraging words. You are correct in describing me as a general collector of weapons. Here in New Zealand I would be described as a "Magpie" collector. A Magpie is a bird which compulsively collects bright and shiny objects and takes them back to the nest. They can't be eaten, so are of no practical use to the bird, so I guess that he just looks at them with bird pleasure! Could any other forum members be described as "Magpies"? Best, Brian

16th October 2013, 11:15 AM	#11
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	A lot of opinions here. I also agree completely with David. I would keep this keris as it is. If possible a proper stain of the blade to get the real pamor out otherwise i would leave it as it is. When i was a youngster and put my first steps on collecting, i used to visit my neighbours of indonesian origin. They had such a keris on the wall. It was more in the style of the keris Detleff showed us. But i still remember that the backside of the scabbard was carved as well. I had the honor to handle this keris a few times. Probably because of my admiration of this keris. But this family believed also in the power of this keris. They where convinced this keris had a spirit and also made rituals to the keris. I also do remember that the Mrs told me that a friend of the family offered her a big amount of money for the keris. She didn't sell it because it was her family's heirloom. So what is tourist? Now i also have such a keris in my collection with a good balinese blade. In my opinion when the carving isn't done too sloppy such a keris fits well in a collection.

16th October 2013, 11:44 AM	#12
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 328	My proposal was not to spend much money: a decent Cecekahan or Bebondolan hilt is currently sold on ebay for about $ 50.00, and cleaning the blade with pineapple or lemon juce would bring out the pamor at practically no cost. This said, I respect everybody's opinion and leave to the owner to make what he consider better for him. Now he has all information to decide.