Help with Helmet Identification

CharlesS · 10th October 2013, 10:43 PM

Thanks for the input guys.

Runjeet, that one you have shown us is identical for all practical purposes.

The British affiliation would certainly explain the very finished look that I would not have expected on Sudanese armor. It is likely a machined helmet as no hammer marks are visible.

ariel · 11th October 2013, 02:24 AM

A+ to Mahratt!

Runjeet Singh · 11th October 2013, 06:52 PM

Hi Charles, All,

Here is the description from a similar helmet I have had in the past:

Scarce 19th Century Sudanese Helmet. Of large proportions, probably worn with a small turban or with padding on the head.

A large and deep steel bowl, of two piece construction, terminating with a faceted knob finial.

A long nasal guard, with a typical screw fastening to hold it in place. A complete camail with double ring maile in an interlocking pattern. Some traces of silver paint where a previous owner has decorated the helmet. A rare and impressive item.

For a similar example please see P.149, Splendeur Des Armes Orientales (Ricketts/Missilier) 1988. There is also a similar example shown in at St Johns House Museum, Warwick, England.

Overall Height: 22in (560mm)
Bowl diameter: 8 1/4in(210mm)

I attach photos of my helmet and the one from the St Johns Museum.

Regards,
Runjeet

Runjeet Singh · 11th October 2013, 06:53 PM

Photos attached.

CharlesS · 11th October 2013, 07:45 PM

Thanks for your efforts here Runjeet!

Runjeet Singh · 11th October 2013, 09:47 PM

No problem Charles, happy to help.
Here is a photo from the Royal Armouries, Leeds, England.

The same helmet, again with padding (which I have never seen outside of a museum) and the traditional Sudanese dress.

I have seen some early photos of Sudanese warriors in these helmets and chain mail armour - but I don't have them saved.

Regards,
Runjeet

CharlesS · 11th October 2013, 09:53 PM

Thanks yet again for that pic. I'd love to get more on the Co. that may have manufactured these....that must be a story within itself. Afterall, surely they did not manufacture these for the Madhists!!! Were they made for the Egyptians that administered the Sudan?? I know there were Sudanese troops fighting alongside the British, but was there an independent Sudanese government that could have ordered such pieces?

That really raises so many interesting questions, and I have no idea how to go about finding the answers.

estcrh · 11th October 2013, 11:09 PM

These helmets were actually Egyptian, they were made in England for use by the forces of the Khedive of Egypt. In the mid to late 1800s Egypt was modernizing their military, they hired European and American military advisors and started using several types of European made armor, first these helmets with split ring camail and split ring mail shirts from England and then later a French made helmet with butted link camail and a steel cuirass.

The Sudanese ended up with Egyptian armor by capturing it or by buying or trading for it. A lot of Sudanese armor, weapons and accessories were captured and sent to England after battles with the fanatic Islamic revolutionaries of the self proclaimed "Mahdi" in the late 1800s.

Here are a couple of links with information on the Khedives and the Sudanese.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16920

http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egyp...820-till-1914/

http://www.pinterest.com/samuraianti...ives-of-egypt/

http://www.themailresearchsociety.er...tmrs_pdf_9.pdf

Runjeet Singh · 11th October 2013, 11:34 PM

Fantastic research Eric - do you know (or does anybody) know the name of the maker in Birmingham? Personal curiosity - you understand!

11th October 2013, 06:53 PM	#4
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Photos attached. Attached Images

11th October 2013, 09:47 PM	#6
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	No problem Charles, happy to help. Here is a photo from the Royal Armouries, Leeds, England. The same helmet, again with padding (which I have never seen outside of a museum) and the traditional Sudanese dress. I have seen some early photos of Sudanese warriors in these helmets and chain mail armour - but I don't have them saved. Regards, Runjeet Attached Images

11th October 2013, 11:09 PM	#8
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	These helmets were actually Egyptian, they were made in England for use by the forces of the Khedive of Egypt. In the mid to late 1800s Egypt was modernizing their military, they hired European and American military advisors and started using several types of European made armor, first these helmets with split ring camail and split ring mail shirts from England and then later a French made helmet with butted link camail and a steel cuirass. The Sudanese ended up with Egyptian armor by capturing it or by buying or trading for it. A lot of Sudanese armor, weapons and accessories were captured and sent to England after battles with the fanatic Islamic revolutionaries of the self proclaimed "Mahdi" in the late 1800s. Here are a couple of links with information on the Khedives and the Sudanese. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16920 http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egyp...820-till-1914/ http://www.pinterest.com/samuraianti...ives-of-egypt/ http://www.themailresearchsociety.er...tmrs_pdf_9.pdf Attached Images

10th October 2013, 10:43 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks for the input guys. Runjeet, that one you have shown us is identical for all practical purposes. The British affiliation would certainly explain the very finished look that I would not have expected on Sudanese armor. It is likely a machined helmet as no hammer marks are visible.

11th October 2013, 02:24 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A+ to Mahratt!

11th October 2013, 06:52 PM	#3
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Hi Charles, All, Here is the description from a similar helmet I have had in the past: Scarce 19th Century Sudanese Helmet. Of large proportions, probably worn with a small turban or with padding on the head. A large and deep steel bowl, of two piece construction, terminating with a faceted knob finial. A long nasal guard, with a typical screw fastening to hold it in place. A complete camail with double ring maile in an interlocking pattern. Some traces of silver paint where a previous owner has decorated the helmet. A rare and impressive item. For a similar example please see P.149, Splendeur Des Armes Orientales (Ricketts/Missilier) 1988. There is also a similar example shown in at St Johns House Museum, Warwick, England. Overall Height: 22in (560mm) Bowl diameter: 8 1/4in(210mm) I attach photos of my helmet and the one from the St Johns Museum. Regards, Runjeet

11th October 2013, 07:45 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks for your efforts here Runjeet!

11th October 2013, 09:53 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks yet again for that pic. I'd love to get more on the Co. that may have manufactured these....that must be a story within itself. Afterall, surely they did not manufacture these for the Madhists!!! Were they made for the Egyptians that administered the Sudan?? I know there were Sudanese troops fighting alongside the British, but was there an independent Sudanese government that could have ordered such pieces? That really raises so many interesting questions, and I have no idea how to go about finding the answers.

11th October 2013, 11:34 PM	#9
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Fantastic research Eric - do you know (or does anybody) know the name of the maker in Birmingham? Personal curiosity - you understand!