Sword with 'famous' blade

fernando · 22nd September 2013, 08:52 PM

This is another Portuguese regulation sword for infantry/artillery officer mod. 1806 that i got in a swap operation.
This time the blade, instead of being German like the previous one, is an early Spanish ... or it all indicates it is. This custom doesn't constitute a surprise, as period officers had to purchade their swords and, either for sentimental or economical reasons, they ordered their family ancient blades to be mounted, respecting ( + or - ) the regulation length. Hilts had to be made within the rules, with only slight variations, depending on the officer wealth or rank ... brass or silver components. This example has a plain wooden grip: i don't know if this was a decision of the original owner or was a later replacement. These grips are usualy wired with silver filigrane, like te other one i have.
But the issue, such as i would like to emphasize, is the name of the blade smith: TOMAS AIALA; the usual story of the name of this famous sword smith, which was copied by so many competitors of the period. Not that so often blades made by other smiths had the same quality but, fame is fame.
I ignore whether this specific one is genuine; i am ready to accept it is not. An amazing detail are the little wavy signs near the I for AIALA. Given that the actual name of this smith is more often (or also) registered as AYALA, i make it my fantasy that the waves are to remind the Y. Not much sense in this but, the waves are (only) placed in this letter for some reason.
It looks like a nice blade, anyhow. Length 87 cms.
Comments will be much welcome.

.

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2013, 01:47 AM

Really beautiful sword Nando! and as you have well surmised, it is of course not a true 'Ayala' blade, but one of the Solingen products of the 18th century, and I am inclined to think these were earlier in the century than the well known 'Spanish motto' dragoon blades.

Tomas Ayala was a late 16th century Toledo smith whose name, according to Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, pp.288-9) was one of the frequently used names as rather a 'brand' well into 18th c. I believe he ceased c. 1625.

Your note of the curious mark over the 'I' (which is apparantly the German spelling used in place of the 'Y') is a well considered thought. As you know my obsession is with markings, and I am wondering if perhaps this vdery subtle mark could have other meaning than you suggest. A similar mark (looks like a bird in flight) is known in some of the esoterica as a kind of signature associated with the order of friars of Brothers of St. John.
If I recall this or similar order was situated in or near Solingen quite early, and there were numerous symbols etc. used by Spanish adopted in some German contexts.
While of course not necessarily anything supportable at this point, it seems clearly a deliberately placed, yet unobtrusive mark and would be interesting to look more into.

The other mark seems a sort of 'serpentine' symbol as well as the parallel undulating lines at the forte, which seems we discussed some time ago as a recurring symbol on a number of renaissance period blades.

fernando · 23rd September 2013, 03:04 PM

Thanks much for your luminescent impressions, Jim

.
So a XVIII century Solingen (trade) blade it will be. Many of tese found their way to Portugal, as blades were not the local cup of tea.
My frigid character can't however follow you isoteric aura on what counts the wavy marks, but i will take very good account of them, as you put it

.

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2013, 04:18 PM

You bet Nando!
Hey, I like that....luminescence!!!!

and esoteric aura !!!
Actually I liked the idea of the diacritic over the 'I', but thought a little 'Templars' and perhaps some UFO allusion would add a little flair.

You're right, Portugal as I understand was getting quite a few blades from England, and since Germany and England had profound arrangements in these times, it is not surprising that some of these Spanish market ones would enter the mix.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 23rd September 2013, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... You're right, Portugal as I understand was getting quite a few blades from England ...

I guess that was at a later stage ... end XVIII beg. XIX century ... Peninsular war etc.
In an earlier period, they would come from Germany ... as many found in rapiers and cuphilt swords.
But i am no Guru in this (or other) area... may be talking nonsense

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2013, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I guess that was at a later stage ... end XVIII beg. XIX century ... Peninsular war etc.
In an earlier period, they would come from Germany ... as many found in rapiers and cuphilt swords.
But i am no Guru in this (or other) area... may be talking nonsense

You are far too modest Nando! Ive known you too long for you to get away with that

and yes it was end of the 18th I was thinking of. Germany seems to have virtually always been the supercenter of arms and armour, despite the superb work produced in Italy and Spain in thier own eras.

dana_w · 24th September 2013, 10:14 PM

Thanks for sharing fernando. I always learn something interesting from reading Jim McDougall comments too.

fernando · 25th September 2013, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dana_w

... I always learn something interesting from reading Jim McDougall comments too.

But don't tell him that. He thinks otherwise

22nd September 2013, 08:52 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sword with 'famous' blade This is another Portuguese regulation sword for infantry/artillery officer mod. 1806 that i got in a swap operation. This time the blade, instead of being German like the previous one, is an early Spanish ... or it all indicates it is. This custom doesn't constitute a surprise, as period officers had to purchade their swords and, either for sentimental or economical reasons, they ordered their family ancient blades to be mounted, respecting ( + or - ) the regulation length. Hilts had to be made within the rules, with only slight variations, depending on the officer wealth or rank ... brass or silver components. This example has a plain wooden grip: i don't know if this was a decision of the original owner or was a later replacement. These grips are usualy wired with silver filigrane, like te other one i have. But the issue, such as i would like to emphasize, is the name of the blade smith: TOMAS AIALA; the usual story of the name of this famous sword smith, which was copied by so many competitors of the period. Not that so often blades made by other smiths had the same quality but, fame is fame. I ignore whether this specific one is genuine; i am ready to accept it is not. An amazing detail are the little wavy signs near the I for AIALA. Given that the actual name of this smith is more often (or also) registered as AYALA, i make it my fantasy that the waves are to remind the Y. Not much sense in this but, the waves are (only) placed in this letter for some reason. It looks like a nice blade, anyhow. Length 87 cms. Comments will be much welcome. . Attached Images

23rd September 2013, 01:47 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Really beautiful sword Nando! and as you have well surmised, it is of course not a true 'Ayala' blade, but one of the Solingen products of the 18th century, and I am inclined to think these were earlier in the century than the well known 'Spanish motto' dragoon blades. Tomas Ayala was a late 16th century Toledo smith whose name, according to Mann (Wallace Coll. 1962, pp.288-9) was one of the frequently used names as rather a 'brand' well into 18th c. I believe he ceased c. 1625. Your note of the curious mark over the 'I' (which is apparantly the German spelling used in place of the 'Y') is a well considered thought. As you know my obsession is with markings, and I am wondering if perhaps this vdery subtle mark could have other meaning than you suggest. A similar mark (looks like a bird in flight) is known in some of the esoterica as a kind of signature associated with the order of friars of Brothers of St. John. If I recall this or similar order was situated in or near Solingen quite early, and there were numerous symbols etc. used by Spanish adopted in some German contexts. While of course not necessarily anything supportable at this point, it seems clearly a deliberately placed, yet unobtrusive mark and would be interesting to look more into. The other mark seems a sort of 'serpentine' symbol as well as the parallel undulating lines at the forte, which seems we discussed some time ago as a recurring symbol on a number of renaissance period blades.

23rd September 2013, 03:04 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks much for your luminescent impressions, Jim . So a XVIII century Solingen (trade) blade it will be. Many of tese found their way to Portugal, as blades were not the local cup of tea. My frigid character can't however follow you isoteric aura on what counts the wavy marks, but i will take very good account of them, as you put it .

23rd September 2013, 04:18 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	You bet Nando! Hey, I like that....luminescence!!!! and esoteric aura !!! Actually I liked the idea of the diacritic over the 'I', but thought a little 'Templars' and perhaps some UFO allusion would add a little flair. You're right, Portugal as I understand was getting quite a few blades from England, and since Germany and England had profound arrangements in these times, it is not surprising that some of these Spanish market ones would enter the mix. All the best, Jim

24th September 2013, 10:14 PM	#7
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Thanks for sharing fernando. I always learn something interesting from reading Jim McDougall comments too.