Odd sword that sold at Dorotheum

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd September 2013, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

sorry for late reply in this thread.

This sword is of a type carried by the Venetians troups in the wars against the Ottoman Turks.

this dalmation sword, also the blade, can be dated around 1600-1650 , it is of oakeshott type XIII, a type frequently used in the 16th and 17th C.
However I must admit that oakeshotts classification is not/rarely used for 17thC swords.
The origin probably is Venice.

best,

Salaams Cornelistromp ! I was stuck for a moment trying to find an example and then your superb picture arrived... Great support ... For me this is really the first serious look at Swords of the European region and requires a load of swatting up. I had re-read lumps of "Constantinople-The Rise and Fall" hoping to gain a foothold and some of the brilliant stuff in Forum Library. I'm sure there is a lot more to unearth on this subject and details of the strange cuff could develop . I am quite curious about the cuff on #1 and the example at the Wallace. Below is the late 15th C sketch I have of a weapon with a similar pommel not 8 sided but 6. Jim has also placed a reference from "Arts of the Muslim Knight" and I wondered if anyone has an example of the unusual latten "Cross IN Orb"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2013, 04:57 PM

Thank you so much Jasper for the great entry! It is most interesting to see the similarity in these Venetian swords of 17th century, and how much influence the Timurid/Safavid downturned quillons had on certain European forms. In Italy the 'crab claw' hilts were certainly well established, and if not mistaken some degree of this diffused into German work.

In the case of this example from Venice the quillons are without terminals, however the interesting crosshatch designs remind me of the familiar fir cone of Augsburg marks. In our example of discussion I am not sure if the Nasrid character and Persian/Ottoman style quillon terminals would necessarily correspond to swords used by Venetians vs. the Ottomans.
It does seem clear that this Dalmatian associaion would lend well to the Balkan (particularly Bosnian) attribution of this apparant commemorative style sword in these type mounts.

Ibrahiim I will see if I can get the images from the book on the Bosnian example. I think seeing the openwork on this example and the dragon head quillons will better illustrate the connection I am making.

Regarding the pommel, as Jasper well notes, the Oakeshott typologies do not typically work well farther into Renaissance period and later. In these cases the work by A.V.B.Norman is the reference to use, and I will later look into that as well.
It is interesting that the example shown by Jasper also has an octagonal profile, though of clearly different character.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd September 2013, 05:05 PM

Salaams All Note to Forum

For an example of Cross IN Orb Please see http://musingsofafreifechter.tumblr.com/ at bottom of page ...

For an example of an octagonal pommel see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3707

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd September 2013, 05:56 PM

Ibrahiim I will see if I can get the images from the book on the Bosnian example. I think seeing the openwork on this example and the dragon head quillons will better illustrate the connection I am making.

Salaams Jim ~ Thank you very much Jim ... That would be great... The brain cells are taking a battering and are at overload. Ewart Oakeshott spent his entire life in this subject, thus, I have embarked on something of a roller coaster learning curve of epic proportions. Thanks for your help.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 23rd September 2013, 06:07 PM

Superb entry, Jasper ... as always

Iain · 23rd September 2013, 07:56 PM

Fantastic stuff Jim and Jasper.

I think that might just clinch it, Ventian and Balkan (Bosnian) combination piece.

Here's the page with the Bosnian piece courtesy of a friend and fellow forumite.

Fascinating material, this is the sort of puzzle and detective work that make this forum a real joy to be a party of.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th September 2013, 06:44 AM

Salaams all Note to Forum.. Never being one to ignore the obscure reference! I thought this was interesting and related to Dalmatian swords through traditional dance...

Moreska is pronounced 'Moreska'. It means 'Moorish'. The word is derived from the Spanish adjective 'Morisco' or the Italian 'Moresco'. It is a matter of conjecture whether the dance came to the Adriatic directly from Spain through roving Spanish sailors, or from Sicily or Italy when Dalmatia formed part of the Venetian Republic whether it was originally a Moorish dance or a Spanish one, inspired by the struggle of Spanish Christians against the Moors is also debatable though the latter seems the most likely. We do know for certain that it is one of the oldest traditional European dances still performed, and that records exist of it being danced in Lerida in 1156 in a form portraying a Christian and National victory over the Moors and their expulsion from Aragon.

From the 12th century and particularly in the 16th and 17th centuries, the dance spread to many Mediterranean countries: to Italy, Corsica, Sicily, Malta, France and, through Spanish trade, to Flanders, Germany and even to England. It was subject to frequent local variations, in regard to plot, protagonists and eventually also to form. In Corsica it was danced by eighty swordsmen on each side, armed with two swords apiece, who did battle for the town of Mariana to the music of a solo violin; in Elba the engagement was between Christians and Turks, in other places between Arabs and Turks; sometimes the damsel in distress was a white maiden of royal blood, sometimes a Turkish or Moorish one of equal innocence and beauty. In Ferrara a dragon was introduced who tried to devour the damsel and there were many later versions which degenerated from the original war-dance (intrinsically a useful sword practice and 'keep-fit' class for the warriors of small island or coastal garrisons for whom good swordsmanship and alertness meant their survival) into a form of folk drama, and eventually into the dance interludes of pastoral plays and Italian opera. In Germany the Moreska, though called Moriskentanze, became a mere collection of local folk dances and in England the Morris (l.e. Moorish) dancers threw away their swords and substituted long wooden sticks which they fought with and over which they hopped. In most of the Mediterranean the Moreska survived until the end of the 18th century, and in Italy and Dalmatia till the close of the 19th.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th September 2013, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Fantastic stuff Jim and Jasper.

I think that might just clinch it, Ventian and Balkan (Bosnian) combination piece.

Here's the page with the Bosnian piece courtesy of a friend and fellow forumite.

Fascinating material, this is the sort of puzzle and detective work that make this forum a real joy to be a party of.

Salaams Iain ~ Excellent picture of the sword ~ Perhaps the write up can be included as a separate picture as it is split in half ? I wonder if the roundels on #1 and the roundels here are of the same design ? Roundels I believe were used to imply the wheels of a chariot in earlier times in the region.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

23rd September 2013, 05:05 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All Note to Forum For an example of Cross IN Orb Please see http://musingsofafreifechter.tumblr.com/ at bottom of page ... For an example of an octagonal pommel see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3707 Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd September 2013 at 06:37 PM.

23rd September 2013, 07:56 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Fantastic stuff Jim and Jasper. I think that might just clinch it, Ventian and Balkan (Bosnian) combination piece. Here's the page with the Bosnian piece courtesy of a friend and fellow forumite. Fascinating material, this is the sort of puzzle and detective work that make this forum a real joy to be a party of. Attached Images

23rd September 2013, 04:57 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you so much Jasper for the great entry! It is most interesting to see the similarity in these Venetian swords of 17th century, and how much influence the Timurid/Safavid downturned quillons had on certain European forms. In Italy the 'crab claw' hilts were certainly well established, and if not mistaken some degree of this diffused into German work. In the case of this example from Venice the quillons are without terminals, however the interesting crosshatch designs remind me of the familiar fir cone of Augsburg marks. In our example of discussion I am not sure if the Nasrid character and Persian/Ottoman style quillon terminals would necessarily correspond to swords used by Venetians vs. the Ottomans. It does seem clear that this Dalmatian associaion would lend well to the Balkan (particularly Bosnian) attribution of this apparant commemorative style sword in these type mounts. Ibrahiim I will see if I can get the images from the book on the Bosnian example. I think seeing the openwork on this example and the dragon head quillons will better illustrate the connection I am making. Regarding the pommel, as Jasper well notes, the Oakeshott typologies do not typically work well farther into Renaissance period and later. In these cases the work by A.V.B.Norman is the reference to use, and I will later look into that as well. It is interesting that the example shown by Jasper also has an octagonal profile, though of clearly different character.

23rd September 2013, 05:56 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Ibrahiim I will see if I can get the images from the book on the Bosnian example. I think seeing the openwork on this example and the dragon head quillons will better illustrate the connection I am making. Salaams Jim ~ Thank you very much Jim ... That would be great... The brain cells are taking a battering and are at overload. Ewart Oakeshott spent his entire life in this subject, thus, I have embarked on something of a roller coaster learning curve of epic proportions. Thanks for your help. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

23rd September 2013, 06:07 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Superb entry, Jasper ... as always

24th September 2013, 06:44 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all Note to Forum.. Never being one to ignore the obscure reference! I thought this was interesting and related to Dalmatian swords through traditional dance... Moreska is pronounced 'Moreska'. It means 'Moorish'. The word is derived from the Spanish adjective 'Morisco' or the Italian 'Moresco'. It is a matter of conjecture whether the dance came to the Adriatic directly from Spain through roving Spanish sailors, or from Sicily or Italy when Dalmatia formed part of the Venetian Republic whether it was originally a Moorish dance or a Spanish one, inspired by the struggle of Spanish Christians against the Moors is also debatable though the latter seems the most likely. We do know for certain that it is one of the oldest traditional European dances still performed, and that records exist of it being danced in Lerida in 1156 in a form portraying a Christian and National victory over the Moors and their expulsion from Aragon. From the 12th century and particularly in the 16th and 17th centuries, the dance spread to many Mediterranean countries: to Italy, Corsica, Sicily, Malta, France and, through Spanish trade, to Flanders, Germany and even to England. It was subject to frequent local variations, in regard to plot, protagonists and eventually also to form. In Corsica it was danced by eighty swordsmen on each side, armed with two swords apiece, who did battle for the town of Mariana to the music of a solo violin; in Elba the engagement was between Christians and Turks, in other places between Arabs and Turks; sometimes the damsel in distress was a white maiden of royal blood, sometimes a Turkish or Moorish one of equal innocence and beauty. In Ferrara a dragon was introduced who tried to devour the damsel and there were many later versions which degenerated from the original war-dance (intrinsically a useful sword practice and 'keep-fit' class for the warriors of small island or coastal garrisons for whom good swordsmanship and alertness meant their survival) into a form of folk drama, and eventually into the dance interludes of pastoral plays and Italian opera. In Germany the Moreska, though called Moriskentanze, became a mere collection of local folk dances and in England the Morris (l.e. Moorish) dancers threw away their swords and substituted long wooden sticks which they fought with and over which they hopped. In most of the Mediterranean the Moreska survived until the end of the 18th century, and in Italy and Dalmatia till the close of the 19th. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.