need some help about my new keris

[auk]

Hi mr maisey thanks again fore the replay
i understand its hard to tell from foto,s wat the unusal aspects are.
you said probily from east java?
hoping i can get more judgement about dhapur? geographic origin? tangguh? isi? tuah wat the keris was ment for i wil try put some more information.
the lengt from top til ganja is 32 cm ganja lenght 8cm the peksi in thin not a thick one and at the end a little twisted also i like to know wat kind of pamor it is meanig etc i have a lot of questions hoping i get some more answer
thanks fore reading and thinking
greetings...

[Henk]

Auk, I mean the right side of your last picture but frontal on the edge.

[auk]

Hi Henk thanks fore the reply hope this picture wil do
Greetings

[David]

Originally Posted by auk

Hi Henk thanks fore the reply hope this picture wil do
Greetings

Actually Auk, i think that a 3/4th viewpoint might be more helpful here than the straight on shot Henk requested.

[auk]

Hi thanks fore the replay i wil add two more foto,s
first i think the top pamor is welded in the iron you can see the twist in it not striacht wat you see when they to file it
second foto i leave it to the specialst
thanks fore the thinking greetings

[tunggulametung]

Hello,
There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

[David]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello,
There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

hmmm....can can you tell us why you think this is a contemporary keris?
I am also confused by you opinion that "your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one." These seem to be two diametrically opposed opinions in one sentence. Which do you believe, that it has been altered or that it was made this way from day one? I am not sure that i see where it has been altered from the photos provided.
Personally i don't think the workmanship (garap) is that bad. This is not a masterpiece keris by any means but i am in agreement with Alan that it is an nice, old and unusual keris that aside from what appears to be some damage in the gandik area is in pretty good shape (sheath not withstanding). Frankly, i like keris that don't fit clearly into the mold. It seems senseless to me to create some kind of composite name simply to have a dhapur to tag onto this piece.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

It seems senseless to me to create some kind of composite name simply to have a dhapur to tag onto this piece.

Yes, this is not a standard Central Javanese dhapur although as said by Chandra it could be called Sepang/ Damar Murub. The ganja sepang is not standard. Additionally the strange kembang kacang and grooves seem reminiscent of the Megantara dapur (see pictures). The maker should have been (or be) a very imaginative guy!
Regards

[auk]

Hello thanks fore the new reply,s
is it helpfull if i post a picture from the peksi
also i was reading some older article of keris and found this on vikingsword
about the keris megantara like jean mentioned i see a little risemble in the blade specialy over the deep central fuller of the blade that blade that extends almost to the tip see the fifth picture on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99755
greetings auk

[David]

I've tried my best to enlarge and enhance this image. Still hard to know anything without this blade in hand.
Jean, perhaps you could share with us where you see signs of this being a recent or altered blade. Frankly i just can't tell what's up in that gandik area.

[tunggulametung]

Keris connoisseurs, first here’s a little joke for you:
1. If you are presented with a keris (presumably with some luks) and you don’t know how to count how many luk it has, or you have to manually count the luk before you can decide how many luk it has, than you are fairly new to keris collecting. I'm fairly sure that none of us in this forum fall into this category.

2. If you are presented with a keris (presumably luk 3-9), and you can quickly name how many luk it has without manually counting it, and/or you made some mistake especially on luk 7 or 9 (but that's okay!) then you are an apprentice. I think I fall in this category

3. If you are presented with a keris (presumably luk 11-13), and you can quickly name how many luk it has without manually counting it, then you are a journeyman. I think many of this forum member fall in this category

4. If you are presented with a keris (luk 15 onwards), and you can quickly name how many luk it has without manually counting it, then you are a master. Yes I'm speaking about the silent majority

5. If you are presented with a sheathed keris, be it luk or straight, and you can tell whether it is luk or straight, and/or you at least once in your lifetime decide to (would have) buy a sheathed keris without seeing the blade then you are a grand master. This title reserved for few, few, select, seasoned collectors only

Anyway...

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....can can you tell us why you think this is a contemporary keris?

Yes I can. The unusual dapur make a good indication, its condition doesn't look natural, garap in my opinion indicate contemporary keris--see my comment about garap further below. Material and pamor work looks good, but that doesn't always equal old keris (read antique/great age).

Originally Posted by David

I am also confused by you opinion that "your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one." These seem to be two diametrically opposed opinions in one sentence. Which do you believe, that it has been altered or that it was made this way from day one? I am not sure that i see where it has been altered from the photos provided.

I’m sorry if my opinion confused you, I meant to say either, including its combination. I won't be surprised if the keris was made to look unusual intentionally.

Originally Posted by David

Personally i don't think the workmanship (garap) is that bad. This is not a masterpiece keris by any means but i am in agreement with Alan that it is an nice, old and unusual keris that aside from what appears to be some damage in the gandik area is in pretty good shape (sheath not withstanding). Frankly, i like keris that don't fit clearly into the mold. It seems senseless to me to create some kind of composite name simply to have a dhapur to tag onto this piece.

I believe there are general consensus on that but garap can be very subjective matter to judge, so I have no further comment on that.
I have abandoned (or only loosely based my view on) some popular classification like tangguh, pamor, dapur, etc... so for me a good keris can be just about anything, I'm open to variations etc and to have some tasteful surprise sometime is nice, but the mold is there for a good reason, think of doughnut, baguette or croissant.

Originally Posted by Jean

..... I know your experience and as you live in Jakarta you are more familiar with the tricks of the trade than most of us. Personally I find this question of distinguishing between a genuine old blade from a recent and altered one as very difficult and primordial for a collector and any input on tis subject is welcome. So please elaborate more about the observations and findings which make you believe that this is not an old blade, we are listening!

Jean, unfortunately I don't have any easy solution or claim that I can distinguish between the two, sorry. I doubt that geographic location and familiarity on some 'tricks of the trade' help much. I just based my view on general/universally accepted indicator. Some are easily distinguishable, some are not so, some are indistinguishable. In this matter I doubt that I’m any better than you or anyone in this forum

[Jean]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

5. If you are presented with a sheathed keris, be it luk or straight, and you can tell whether it is luk or straight, and/or you at least once in your lifetime decide to (would have) buy a sheathed keris without seeing the blade then you are a grand master. This title reserved for few, few, select, seasoned collectors only

Thank you Chandra
Sajen successfully achieved this recently, congratulations to him for getting the grand master medal!
Regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you Chandra
Sajen successfully achieved this recently, congratulations to him for getting the grand master medal!
Regards

I am fairly sure that I am at best a apprentice but maybe a good "poker player"!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

5. If you are presented with a sheathed keris, be it luk or straight, and you can tell whether it is luk or straight, and/or you at least once in your lifetime decide to (would have) buy a sheathed keris without seeing the blade then you are a grand master. This title reserved for few, few, select, seasoned collectors only

[Jean]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello,
There are many possibilities but based upon what I can see I'm in the opinion that your keris has been repaired/altered--or even made to look unusual from day one, I'll call it dapur kreasi baru/owah-owahan or the like --contemporary/non standard dapur (might be once sepang-urubung damar combo which is okay, anything in that direction), tangguh kamardikan--modern/vintage, pamor wos wutah, origin Java-Madura somewhere, I don't have any opinion on tuah/isi. I could be wrong. Nice material but rather lacking on garap I would say, sorry. I wish better condition keris coming your way soon

Hello Chandra,
Thank you for your interesting opinion and personally I would not discard it too quickly as I also see some signs that this may be a recent or altered piece. I know your experience and as you live in Jakarta you are more familiar with the tricks of the trade than most of us. Personally I find this question of distinguishing between a genuine old blade from a recent and altered one as very difficult and primordial for a collector and any input on tis subject is welcome. So please elaborate more about the observations and findings which make you believe that this is not an old blade, we are listening!
Best regards