17th century armada chest with 9 bolts

fernando · 27th August 2013, 06:16 PM

As Jim well reminds the fanciful term “Armada chest” was made up “the other day”. Most probably chests used aboard were of the same characteristics of those used in land, even comprehending the various styles created now and then, here and there. Apparently those aboard were often chained to the officers cabin decks, which is easy to understand. I gather that very often these chests contained precious documents, like valuable and unique navigation charts and devices, besides weapons and hard currency … not excluding jewels and precious metals … this not to ignore the romantic pirate approach

. Most probably also the gold brought from Africa during discoveries period, was carried in this fashion of more or less intrincate lock chests; as there is solid evidence of the Burras used to carry the gold from Brazil in the XVIII century

In the XIII century, a method of filing (keeping) jewels and other valuable objects was implemented in Portugal (for one); these were enclosed in a chest with four locks, each one handed to a high rank official of the kingdom.
This habit originated the term “Fechado a sete chaves” ( locked with seven keys ), still used nowadays. Number seven was incorporated in the expression due to its mystic value, something present in Babilonic and Egiption religions. An example of this numer symbology is the quantity of seals with which Roman wills were closed in the middle ages.
The present term used for chest over here is cofre (coffer) of Latin ecclesiastic origin, but a term more directed to this type of armoured chests was Burra (feminine for donkey).

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Jim McDougall · 27th August 2013, 08:03 PM

Outstanding input everybody!!! It is truly amazing how much dimension is gained in these kinds of discussions, and the item itself has provided a great avenue for it! Thanks everyone for this added perspective.

I'd sure like to have one of these, but can guarantee the shocks on the good ole bookmobile would give out!
You right Nando, it would take most of the pirate crew to drag (carry not likely!) one of these full of gold!! Hooray for Hollywood with those powerful guys in the old pirate movies, two or three, carrying these like a piece of furniture

Marcus den toom · 27th August 2013, 08:42 PM

If you know where to look, they are rather cheap

There is one for sale right now for just 200 great brittain pounds (around $300??) depending on the interest in this particular chest. It is a bit younger variant but still pretty nice (1750s).

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th August 2013, 08:33 AM

Salaams all ...

Marcus den toom... That is very cheap... maybe there are a lot of them ...

as for the Portuguese pre 1650 Omani Chests add a couple of zeros as there are very few left.

Jim~ I have no evidence to hand about the Armada boxes but the Portuguese may have used them aboard in the Indian Ocean.

This is a great topic. I remember that when I got the Javanese weapons chest in Dubai the story was that it was from Jerusalem and had been used in a monastary for vestment plate and religious items etc...

The big Portuguese Chests are called "Caizas a Sugar" in Portuguese (excuse my spelling) "Sugar Boxes" and in their found condition these great spices chests were preserved under a thick coat of bat droppings!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 28th August 2013, 01:17 PM

"Caixas de açucar" are a totally different culture; not the safe coffer sense but a transportation means. These cases were active from the XV to the XIX centuries, and their name comes from their use to transport sugar from the colonies. Soon their dimensions were 'standardized' and they also became sugar measure units of multiple sizes, the larger ones reaching large proportions (15 arrobas or arratels x 15 Kilos = 225 Kilos). They were made of various fine woods which, during the XVII century, were 'recycled' by cabinetmakers to make fashionable furniture, the so called "mobília caixa de açucar".

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Marcus den toom · 28th August 2013, 05:28 PM

@ Dimitri,

I almost forgot your question about the Nova Zembla movie and the subs in English. This site might be of help..
http://www.podnapisi.net/nova-zembla...itles-p1543882

The film itself is unkown to me, i did hear about it but never watched it. Most Dutch movies aren't ehhh well... very good

But seeing as this is the only one covering this amazing subject, it will do just fine.

I bought my Strong box at an Auction in the area of cambridge in Great Brittain. It might have a similair story as the box in the museum, but there is no documentation and the auctionhouse won't tell me who the previous owner was.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th August 2013, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

"Caixas de açucar" are a totally different culture; not the safe coffer sense but a transportation means. These cases were active from the XV to the XIX centuries, and their name comes from their use to transport sugar from the colonies. Soon their dimensions were 'standardized' and they also became sugar measure units of multiple sizes, the larger ones reaching large proportions (15 arrobas or arratels x 15 Kilos = 225 Kilos). They were made of various fine woods which, during the XVII century, were 'recycled' by cabinetmakers to make fashionable furniture, the so called "mobília caixa de açucar".

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Salaams ~ When the Portuguese were finally eased out of Muscat in 1650... they left behind a lot of heavy furniture in the shape of chests which as you rightly point out were the huge heavy sugar boxes which were used for all sorts of purposes ...storing silver and spices as well as sugar... Some ended up on the Fort gun lines at Muscat and Sohar whilst others were carted inland to the Jebel Akhdar region etc... I used to own about 100 such artefacts and was amazed on only finding about 6 in the Museums in Portugal. Some had 2, 3 or 5 drawers in them and occasionally a chest of drawers would turn up ...i.e. all drawers.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

M ELEY · 28th August 2013, 07:36 PM

On the television show 'Pawn Stars', there was an original one of these iron chests that was given an auction value of above $10 grand, I believe, but it was a big chest.

On another episode of that same program, a man brought in one made of wood with the intricate locks and key-holes, etc. It turned out to be from India and, although not a 'treasure box', it was used for storing valuables and keeping away thieves, much like your piece, Ibrahiim. It would appear that one pattern influenced another, hey? In any case, these chests were certainly found in castles, keeps, ship's holds (well-founded research) and very probably monasteries as well as merchant's storefronts. All of the examples displayed are envious items in a collection. Wish I had one. Marcus, if you know where one is for that price, buy it for me and I'll pay you back!!

If it's legitimate, I think the auction estimate will be much lower than what it actually sells for.

27th August 2013, 06:16 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Chest wandering As Jim well reminds the fanciful term “Armada chest” was made up “the other day”. Most probably chests used aboard were of the same characteristics of those used in land, even comprehending the various styles created now and then, here and there. Apparently those aboard were often chained to the officers cabin decks, which is easy to understand. I gather that very often these chests contained precious documents, like valuable and unique navigation charts and devices, besides weapons and hard currency … not excluding jewels and precious metals … this not to ignore the romantic pirate approach . Most probably also the gold brought from Africa during discoveries period, was carried in this fashion of more or less intrincate lock chests; as there is solid evidence of the Burras used to carry the gold from Brazil in the XVIII century In the XIII century, a method of filing (keeping) jewels and other valuable objects was implemented in Portugal (for one); these were enclosed in a chest with four locks, each one handed to a high rank official of the kingdom. This habit originated the term “Fechado a sete chaves” ( locked with seven keys ), still used nowadays. Number seven was incorporated in the expression due to its mystic value, something present in Babilonic and Egiption religions. An example of this numer symbology is the quantity of seals with which Roman wills were closed in the middle ages. The present term used for chest over here is cofre (coffer) of Latin ecclesiastic origin, but a term more directed to this type of armoured chests was Burra (feminine for donkey). . Last edited by fernando; 27th August 2013 at 06:36 PM.

28th August 2013, 01:17 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	"Caixas de açucar" are a totally different culture; not the safe coffer sense but a transportation means. These cases were active from the XV to the XIX centuries, and their name comes from their use to transport sugar from the colonies. Soon their dimensions were 'standardized' and they also became sugar measure units of multiple sizes, the larger ones reaching large proportions (15 arrobas or arratels x 15 Kilos = 225 Kilos). They were made of various fine woods which, during the XVII century, were 'recycled' by cabinetmakers to make fashionable furniture, the so called "mobília caixa de açucar". . Attached Images

27th August 2013, 08:03 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Outstanding input everybody!!! It is truly amazing how much dimension is gained in these kinds of discussions, and the item itself has provided a great avenue for it! Thanks everyone for this added perspective. I'd sure like to have one of these, but can guarantee the shocks on the good ole bookmobile would give out! You right Nando, it would take most of the pirate crew to drag (carry not likely!) one of these full of gold!! Hooray for Hollywood with those powerful guys in the old pirate movies, two or three, carrying these like a piece of furniture

27th August 2013, 08:42 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	If you know where to look, they are rather cheap There is one for sale right now for just 200 great brittain pounds (around $300??) depending on the interest in this particular chest. It is a bit younger variant but still pretty nice (1750s).

28th August 2013, 08:33 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all ... Marcus den toom... That is very cheap... maybe there are a lot of them ... as for the Portuguese pre 1650 Omani Chests add a couple of zeros as there are very few left. Jim~ I have no evidence to hand about the Armada boxes but the Portuguese may have used them aboard in the Indian Ocean. This is a great topic. I remember that when I got the Javanese weapons chest in Dubai the story was that it was from Jerusalem and had been used in a monastary for vestment plate and religious items etc... The big Portuguese Chests are called "Caizas a Sugar" in Portuguese (excuse my spelling) "Sugar Boxes" and in their found condition these great spices chests were preserved under a thick coat of bat droppings! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

28th August 2013, 05:28 PM	#6
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	@ Dimitri, I almost forgot your question about the Nova Zembla movie and the subs in English. This site might be of help.. http://www.podnapisi.net/nova-zembla...itles-p1543882 The film itself is unkown to me, i did hear about it but never watched it. Most Dutch movies aren't ehhh well... very good But seeing as this is the only one covering this amazing subject, it will do just fine. I bought my Strong box at an Auction in the area of cambridge in Great Brittain. It might have a similair story as the box in the museum, but there is no documentation and the auctionhouse won't tell me who the previous owner was.

28th August 2013, 07:36 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	On the television show 'Pawn Stars', there was an original one of these iron chests that was given an auction value of above $10 grand, I believe, but it was a big chest. On another episode of that same program, a man brought in one made of wood with the intricate locks and key-holes, etc. It turned out to be from India and, although not a 'treasure box', it was used for storing valuables and keeping away thieves, much like your piece, Ibrahiim. It would appear that one pattern influenced another, hey? In any case, these chests were certainly found in castles, keeps, ship's holds (well-founded research) and very probably monasteries as well as merchant's storefronts. All of the examples displayed are envious items in a collection. Wish I had one. Marcus, if you know where one is for that price, buy it for me and I'll pay you back!! If it's legitimate, I think the auction estimate will be much lower than what it actually sells for.