17th century armada chest with 9 bolts

Marcus den toom · 27th August 2013, 03:21 PM

Srry Dmitri, you're right

my geographical skills are not togood.
But after i looked the place up on the internet i immediatly thoughed about a other "trade" route of the Dutch during the golden age. The whaling grounds in north Russia...

Dmitry · 27th August 2013, 03:34 PM

Yes, in the late 16th-throughout the 17th c. the Dutch were the kings of the seas. It can be said that 2 out of every 5 ships on high seas at that time were Dutch. Somehow it all fizzled out.
Have you seen this film yet? I don't know if there's an English-subtitled version yet, but I'd love to see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqXSFdFxvl8

Perhaps the chest you showed above came from the Barentsz expedition to find the Northern Passage to Asia? Still a treacherous way to travel now. The ice-free navigation period is very short. One has to have immense respect for the travelers of old.

fernando · 27th August 2013, 06:16 PM

As Jim well reminds the fanciful term “Armada chest” was made up “the other day”. Most probably chests used aboard were of the same characteristics of those used in land, even comprehending the various styles created now and then, here and there. Apparently those aboard were often chained to the officers cabin decks, which is easy to understand. I gather that very often these chests contained precious documents, like valuable and unique navigation charts and devices, besides weapons and hard currency … not excluding jewels and precious metals … this not to ignore the romantic pirate approach

. Most probably also the gold brought from Africa during discoveries period, was carried in this fashion of more or less intrincate lock chests; as there is solid evidence of the Burras used to carry the gold from Brazil in the XVIII century

In the XIII century, a method of filing (keeping) jewels and other valuable objects was implemented in Portugal (for one); these were enclosed in a chest with four locks, each one handed to a high rank official of the kingdom.
This habit originated the term “Fechado a sete chaves” ( locked with seven keys ), still used nowadays. Number seven was incorporated in the expression due to its mystic value, something present in Babilonic and Egiption religions. An example of this numer symbology is the quantity of seals with which Roman wills were closed in the middle ages.
The present term used for chest over here is cofre (coffer) of Latin ecclesiastic origin, but a term more directed to this type of armoured chests was Burra (feminine for donkey).

.

Jim McDougall · 27th August 2013, 08:03 PM

Outstanding input everybody!!! It is truly amazing how much dimension is gained in these kinds of discussions, and the item itself has provided a great avenue for it! Thanks everyone for this added perspective.

I'd sure like to have one of these, but can guarantee the shocks on the good ole bookmobile would give out!
You right Nando, it would take most of the pirate crew to drag (carry not likely!) one of these full of gold!! Hooray for Hollywood with those powerful guys in the old pirate movies, two or three, carrying these like a piece of furniture

Marcus den toom · 27th August 2013, 08:42 PM

If you know where to look, they are rather cheap

There is one for sale right now for just 200 great brittain pounds (around $300??) depending on the interest in this particular chest. It is a bit younger variant but still pretty nice (1750s).

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th August 2013, 08:33 AM

Salaams all ...

Marcus den toom... That is very cheap... maybe there are a lot of them ...

as for the Portuguese pre 1650 Omani Chests add a couple of zeros as there are very few left.

Jim~ I have no evidence to hand about the Armada boxes but the Portuguese may have used them aboard in the Indian Ocean.

This is a great topic. I remember that when I got the Javanese weapons chest in Dubai the story was that it was from Jerusalem and had been used in a monastary for vestment plate and religious items etc...

The big Portuguese Chests are called "Caizas a Sugar" in Portuguese (excuse my spelling) "Sugar Boxes" and in their found condition these great spices chests were preserved under a thick coat of bat droppings!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 28th August 2013, 01:17 PM

"Caixas de açucar" are a totally different culture; not the safe coffer sense but a transportation means. These cases were active from the XV to the XIX centuries, and their name comes from their use to transport sugar from the colonies. Soon their dimensions were 'standardized' and they also became sugar measure units of multiple sizes, the larger ones reaching large proportions (15 arrobas or arratels x 15 Kilos = 225 Kilos). They were made of various fine woods which, during the XVII century, were 'recycled' by cabinetmakers to make fashionable furniture, the so called "mobília caixa de açucar".

.

27th August 2013, 06:16 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Chest wandering As Jim well reminds the fanciful term “Armada chest” was made up “the other day”. Most probably chests used aboard were of the same characteristics of those used in land, even comprehending the various styles created now and then, here and there. Apparently those aboard were often chained to the officers cabin decks, which is easy to understand. I gather that very often these chests contained precious documents, like valuable and unique navigation charts and devices, besides weapons and hard currency … not excluding jewels and precious metals … this not to ignore the romantic pirate approach . Most probably also the gold brought from Africa during discoveries period, was carried in this fashion of more or less intrincate lock chests; as there is solid evidence of the Burras used to carry the gold from Brazil in the XVIII century In the XIII century, a method of filing (keeping) jewels and other valuable objects was implemented in Portugal (for one); these were enclosed in a chest with four locks, each one handed to a high rank official of the kingdom. This habit originated the term “Fechado a sete chaves” ( locked with seven keys ), still used nowadays. Number seven was incorporated in the expression due to its mystic value, something present in Babilonic and Egiption religions. An example of this numer symbology is the quantity of seals with which Roman wills were closed in the middle ages. The present term used for chest over here is cofre (coffer) of Latin ecclesiastic origin, but a term more directed to this type of armoured chests was Burra (feminine for donkey). . Last edited by fernando; 27th August 2013 at 06:36 PM.

28th August 2013, 01:17 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	"Caixas de açucar" are a totally different culture; not the safe coffer sense but a transportation means. These cases were active from the XV to the XIX centuries, and their name comes from their use to transport sugar from the colonies. Soon their dimensions were 'standardized' and they also became sugar measure units of multiple sizes, the larger ones reaching large proportions (15 arrobas or arratels x 15 Kilos = 225 Kilos). They were made of various fine woods which, during the XVII century, were 'recycled' by cabinetmakers to make fashionable furniture, the so called "mobília caixa de açucar". . Attached Images

27th August 2013, 03:21 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Srry Dmitri, you're right my geographical skills are not togood. But after i looked the place up on the internet i immediatly thoughed about a other "trade" route of the Dutch during the golden age. The whaling grounds in north Russia...

27th August 2013, 03:34 PM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Yes, in the late 16th-throughout the 17th c. the Dutch were the kings of the seas. It can be said that 2 out of every 5 ships on high seas at that time were Dutch. Somehow it all fizzled out. Have you seen this film yet? I don't know if there's an English-subtitled version yet, but I'd love to see it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqXSFdFxvl8 Perhaps the chest you showed above came from the Barentsz expedition to find the Northern Passage to Asia? Still a treacherous way to travel now. The ice-free navigation period is very short. One has to have immense respect for the travelers of old.

27th August 2013, 08:03 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Outstanding input everybody!!! It is truly amazing how much dimension is gained in these kinds of discussions, and the item itself has provided a great avenue for it! Thanks everyone for this added perspective. I'd sure like to have one of these, but can guarantee the shocks on the good ole bookmobile would give out! You right Nando, it would take most of the pirate crew to drag (carry not likely!) one of these full of gold!! Hooray for Hollywood with those powerful guys in the old pirate movies, two or three, carrying these like a piece of furniture

27th August 2013, 08:42 PM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	If you know where to look, they are rather cheap There is one for sale right now for just 200 great brittain pounds (around $300??) depending on the interest in this particular chest. It is a bit younger variant but still pretty nice (1750s).

28th August 2013, 08:33 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all ... Marcus den toom... That is very cheap... maybe there are a lot of them ... as for the Portuguese pre 1650 Omani Chests add a couple of zeros as there are very few left. Jim~ I have no evidence to hand about the Armada boxes but the Portuguese may have used them aboard in the Indian Ocean. This is a great topic. I remember that when I got the Javanese weapons chest in Dubai the story was that it was from Jerusalem and had been used in a monastary for vestment plate and religious items etc... The big Portuguese Chests are called "Caizas a Sugar" in Portuguese (excuse my spelling) "Sugar Boxes" and in their found condition these great spices chests were preserved under a thick coat of bat droppings! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.