info blade probably 1770 motto ?

[BerberDagger]

Dear Collectors,

I m searching info regarding an inscription on a small sword , the blade is signed with this : En dieu mon esperance et mon epee par mon defence.

someone known period and provenence ? France of sure ... but i would known other if possible.

thank you BerberDagger

[Hotspur]

Take a look here in the Bashford Dean book
http://swordlinks.com/courtswords/intro.html

I am forgetting the plate off the top of my head but there are similar blade profiles that go from ovoid to hex. France/Alsace/Strasbourg

I have a shard of one of these blades with folded steel, assembled as a dagger when I found it. I'll attach pics I have if interested. The etchings are different but the same "school" and timeline.

Loosely translated; In God is my hope but my sword is my defense

Cheers

Hotspur; As a good Percy would say; Esperance en dieu!

[fernando]

A little correction in the translation could perhaps represent some difference .
In God my hope and my sword for my defence.
... A "motto" that was actualy the title of the first book written by Alberic Magnard (1865-1914), who died defending alone his house from the Germans in 1914.
Magnard has resigned from the Army in 1899 in connection with the famous Dreyfus case. He has entered the Conservatoire in 1886 and his first work was called "En dieu mon esperance et mon epee par mon defence" , which he dedicated to ... his fencing teacher.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by fernando

A little correction in the translation could perhaps represent some difference .
In God my hope and my sword for my defence.
... A "motto" that was actualy the title of the first book written by Alberic Magnard (1865-1914), who died defending alone his house from the Germans in 1914.
Magnard has resigned from the Army in 1899 in connection with the famous Dreyfus case. He has entered the Conservatoire in 1886 and his first work was called "En dieu mon esperance et mon epee par mon defence" , which he dedicated to ... his fencing teacher.

Loosely translated, no real difference in meaning and the sword definitely 18th century. The 19th century anecdote interesting but kind of misleading if meant as the source for the motto.

What is the source and first use for the motto Fernando?

Cheers

GC

[fernando]

No harm in trying to fine tune the translation from loose to precise; specialy if it does alter the intent of the approach.

Here is the source for the anecdote:

http://www.durand-salabert-eschig.co...rd_alberic.pdf

Can't manage to figure out where Magnard picked up the devise. Actualy i thought he was the author. The inscription in the sword doesn't necessarily date from the sword production.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by fernando

No harm in trying to fine tune the translation from loose to precise; specialy if it does alter the intent of the approach.

Here is the source for the anecdote:

http://www.durand-salabert-eschig.co...rd_alberic.pdf

Can't manage to figure out where Magnard picked up the devise. Actualy i thought he was the author. The inscription in the sword doesn't necessarily date from the sword production.

Well sure, it's easy enough to plug the phrase into a search and see his use has the most hits. As well, translations.

Anyway, considering the time period and the French revolution, I am wondering if it might be something that came to be popular in the 1780s-90s.

Cheers

GC

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

... Well sure, it's easy enough to plug the phrase into a search and see his use has the most hits. As well, translations....

Nothing wrong with it, i'd say. Lorenz is not so strong in the Shakespeare language; it would only help the perusal .
Translations like this one are not necessary to resource; not too much sand for this lorry .

Originally Posted by Hotspur

... Anyway, considering the time period and the French revolution, I am wondering if it might be something that came to be popular in the 1780s-90s...

And why not ?

[fernando]

I have contacted Mr. Denis Havard de la Montagne, chied editor of "Musica et Memoria", and a great admirer of composer Alberic Magnard.
The expression used by Magnard is in fact attributed to Joana d'Arc, a XV century French heroine.
Interesting connection between Joan D'arc, a sword fighter, Magnard while a fencer and the sword here discussed.

[BerberDagger]

Thank you all for the valuable information ...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

I have contacted Mr. Denis Havard de la Montagne, chied editor of "Musica et Memoria", and a great admirer of composer Alberic Magnard.
The expression used by Magnard is in fact attributed to Joana d'Arc, a XV century French heroine.
Interesting connection between Joan D'arc, a sword fighter, Magnard while a fencer and the sword here discussed.

Outstanding research Nando!
I think this nicely places this smallsword in French context at end of 18th century and with good degree of Napoleonic probability, given Napoleons use of Joan as a key figure in his advocating French nationalism. Clearly the concept was well placed not only in securing her place in history, but carrying forth that powerful force recalled a century later by Magnard in his work.