Pamor thread?

DaveA · 24th July 2013, 05:32 AM

Hello All,

I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful.

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

A. G. Maisey · 24th July 2013, 11:12 AM

A nice initiative Dave.

I'd like to make a couple of comments if I may.

Firstly, the contrast in pamor is not necessarily created by combining iron and nickel bearing material. Very often pamor contrast is created by combining irons of different colours, for instance if a high phosphorus iron is combined with a low phosphorus iron the iron with high phosphorus content appears quite pale, something that is referred to as "white iron".

The names that you have given to the various pamors you show could be argued over by students of the keris until the cows come home. I suggest that where you have given a name to a pamor that you name the source of the name, that way people can argue with the original person who gave the pamor that name, rather than with you, or amongst themselves.

Again, my compliments for something that I consider to be a very valuable piece of work.

Jean · 27th July 2013, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

Hello All,

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections.
Best Regards,

Dave A.

Hello Dave,
Congratulations for your valuable work and thanks for sharing it with us!
As Alan said, I would argue about the names given to some pamor patterns but as it is only my personal opinion and not backed by an expert, I will keep it for myself!

Best regards

David · 28th July 2013, 06:44 PM

I agree with both Alan and Jean here. Nice start for an ambitious project. I also agree with them on the name game and frankly i have never heard of many of the pamor names you put forth here (though pamor ID is certainly not my strong point). Not saying they are necessarily incorrect, but i am sure you will get some argument in certain quarters. I also noticed that in at least one case you had a photo labelled Kul Buntet (in "Other Pamors") that mostly shows the upper part of the blade and just a bit of a pattern that may or may not be Kul Buntet at the bottom of the photo. This might give a misinterpretation to the viewer who might assume that the pamor above the circular pattern is also part of Kul Buntet. I would say that for this project to be more effective you will need to up the quality of the images quite a bit as a large number of them are out of focus, poorly lit or poorly cropped (or all of the above) rendering their actual usage questionable for any kind of positive identification. I look forward to watching this project grow so please keep us updated.

Jean · 29th July 2013, 09:07 AM

Regarding the pamor names identified by Dave, some of them may be from Malaysian origin so we are not familiar with them as most of us better know the Javanese ones.

Best regards

milandro · 28th March 2022, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

Hello All,

I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful.

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

While I was researching the pamor of my krises I came across this thread and in particular this post with a reference to the David J. Atkinson site. I think it is an extremely valuable reference point and while my knowledge in general and in particular of the pamors remains very much the beginner's, I too realize how difficult it is to systemize any kind of gallery within the scope of the “ taxonomy “ of the kris.

Yet, It would be very nice to have a pamor resource here too but then I can already see that each entry would be create a discussion on its own since few pamors appear to be a clear cut case and given that there are no universally recognized sources that would be to everyone’s liking and satisfaction, there will always be the matter of how to call what in which way.

A. G. Maisey · 28th March 2022, 09:40 PM

Yes Milandro, you're dead right, names of pamors --- and other things --- do vary from place to place & time to time.

But there is another factor too, one that is frequently overlooked, or maybe not even recognised outside the central core of keris people in Solo, possibly in other places also, but what I know for certain is Solo.

The importance of a pamor pattern in a keris is not nearly as important as the quality of craftsmanship, ie, "garap", in the appraisal and understanding of a keris.

Whereas for probably the majority of keris collectors outside the heartlands of Jawa, the pamor motif is the first thing they see and perhaps the most important thing they consider, for that hard core of keris connoisseurs, there are other things that come first in the appraisal of a keris.

Bob A · 29th March 2022, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The importance of a pamor pattern in a keris is not nearly as important as the quality of craftsmanship, ie, "garap", in the appraisal and understanding of a keris.

Whereas for probably the majority of keris collectors outside the heartlands of Jawa, the pamor motif is the first thing they see and perhaps the most important thing they consider, for that hard core of keris connoisseurs, there are other things that come first in the appraisal of a keris.

How might one allow for the wear and tear of decades or centuries of the corrosive effects of time and treatment of a keris, in judging the workmanship of the blade?

A. G. Maisey · 29th March 2022, 03:30 AM

Good question Bob, but that question moves us from a simple matter of prioritisation of one element of appraisal to complete appraisal of all relevant factors.

I know two ways in which to appraise a keris, and we are talking only the keris itself, only the blade, the dress is not considered in this exercise. The reason for this is that it is the keris that is considered to be the way in which wealth can be stored, the dress is not thought of in the same way.

The first way is:- sepuh - wutuh - tangguh = age, condition, style/features

sepuh = old, wutuh = whole, unbroken, tangguh = characteristics (in this context)

you will notice that when we get into the world of the experts, the ahli keris, that word "tangguh" tends to have a different understanding attached to it than the understanding that is current with many people today.

To understand this better it is worth noting the Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo(Alm.) who was a late 20th century maker working in Surakarta and who held a position in the Surakarta Karaton hierarchy gave the tangguh of the keris he made as "Mataram", not "Surakarta", although he worked in Surakarta, and not 'Kamardikan" although he worked during the period following Merdeka.

He described his keris as "tangguh Mataram" because they bore the features of a keris that was able to be classified as Mataram.

So, in a typically Javanese fashion the word "tangguh" means exactly what you want it to mean, no more, and no less. ( I have been told by people who should know what they are talking about, that Humpty Dumpty was actually born in Klaten, Central Jawa, and only moved to Wonderland later in life).

The second, more modern approach to appraisal is :-

morjasirapngun = pamor, waja(steel), wesi(iron), rap (garap), wangun(appearance/shape)

I was taught that this second way is one that was invented in the market place, mainly because it is easier to manipulate to create a favourable impression.

During the 1980's & 1990's the advanced people whom I knew only ever used the sepuh/wutuh/tangguh base for appraisal, but what needs to be understood is this, each of these component parts link together and incorporate other ideas. For example, "sepuh" relates to how old the keris is, but then the characteristics of the keris, including its form, its craftsmanship & its characteristics including its "feeling" relate to "tangguh", the idea of "wutuh" relates to its state of preservation, and that state of preservation encompasses the perceived age. The whole process is circular, which once again epitomises Javanese thinking.

Put into simple terms, we cannot use the same parameters for the appraisal and thus the value base of a Surakarta period keris and a Mataram period keris.

Then there is the concept of "honour".

Not all periods have the same degree of "honour" in Javanese thought, for instance, Majapahit was the Golden Age, it is drenched in honour. Kartosuro is an era of little or no honour. As PBII said after the Kartosuro kraton had been sacked:-

"I will not sit on a throne that has been defiled by dogs".

So the honour attached to any period has a value too:- a pristine Kartosuro keris is, because of its period of origin, worth less than a Majapahit keris that is not in particularly good condition.

The short answer to your question Bob, is that the whole point of appraisal is to establish value, if a blade has not travelled well, then after other factors have been considered, it is worth less than a blade with similar age and the same tangguh but that is better preserved.

JustYS · 29th March 2022, 06:41 AM

Hi Alan,

What is the order of importance in morjasirapngun?

Is garap the most important and pamor the least important?

Thank you

A. G. Maisey · 29th March 2022, 07:21 AM

The perspective can change YS.

If I adopt Pak Parman's perspective, I think that perhaps the most important single thing is the thing that is not mentioned:- honour.

But when it comes to what we can see, Pak Parman, and as far as I was able to discern, all his friends & associates placed garap above everything else, but we need to understand that the idea of "garap" does not refer just to the sculpting, it also refers to the way in which the pamor was handled, for example, well handled wos wutah is always preferable to badly handled ron duru.

However, never lose sight of the fact that this is appraisal, that is, the objective is to fix a market price, and that market price must reflect the potential value of the investment, thus the final figure reached by the appraisal is always a balance of all elements concerned.

My own way of thinking of this is in real estate terms:- best house in the worst street or worst house in the best street, and that depends upon what we can identify as the "street" that the keris is in.

This is a decision making process, the guidelines are just that:- guidelines, it does not mean that those guidelines are graven in stone.

24th July 2013, 05:32 AM	#1
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 417	Pamor Patterns website Hello All, I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful. You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it. Best Regards, Dave A.

29th July 2013, 09:07 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Regarding the pamor names identified by Dave, some of them may be from Malaysian origin so we are not familiar with them as most of us better know the Javanese ones. Best regards Last edited by Jean; 29th July 2013 at 01:10 PM.

24th July 2013, 11:12 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	A nice initiative Dave. I'd like to make a couple of comments if I may. Firstly, the contrast in pamor is not necessarily created by combining iron and nickel bearing material. Very often pamor contrast is created by combining irons of different colours, for instance if a high phosphorus iron is combined with a low phosphorus iron the iron with high phosphorus content appears quite pale, something that is referred to as "white iron". The names that you have given to the various pamors you show could be argued over by students of the keris until the cows come home. I suggest that where you have given a name to a pamor that you name the source of the name, that way people can argue with the original person who gave the pamor that name, rather than with you, or amongst themselves. Again, my compliments for something that I consider to be a very valuable piece of work.

28th July 2013, 06:44 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	I agree with both Alan and Jean here. Nice start for an ambitious project. I also agree with them on the name game and frankly i have never heard of many of the pamor names you put forth here (though pamor ID is certainly not my strong point). Not saying they are necessarily incorrect, but i am sure you will get some argument in certain quarters. I also noticed that in at least one case you had a photo labelled Kul Buntet (in "Other Pamors") that mostly shows the upper part of the blade and just a bit of a pattern that may or may not be Kul Buntet at the bottom of the photo. This might give a misinterpretation to the viewer who might assume that the pamor above the circular pattern is also part of Kul Buntet. I would say that for this project to be more effective you will need to up the quality of the images quite a bit as a large number of them are out of focus, poorly lit or poorly cropped (or all of the above) rendering their actual usage questionable for any kind of positive identification. I look forward to watching this project grow so please keep us updated.

28th March 2022, 09:40 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Yes Milandro, you're dead right, names of pamors --- and other things --- do vary from place to place & time to time. But there is another factor too, one that is frequently overlooked, or maybe not even recognised outside the central core of keris people in Solo, possibly in other places also, but what I know for certain is Solo. The importance of a pamor pattern in a keris is not nearly as important as the quality of craftsmanship, ie, "garap", in the appraisal and understanding of a keris. Whereas for probably the majority of keris collectors outside the heartlands of Jawa, the pamor motif is the first thing they see and perhaps the most important thing they consider, for that hard core of keris connoisseurs, there are other things that come first in the appraisal of a keris.

29th March 2022, 03:30 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Good question Bob, but that question moves us from a simple matter of prioritisation of one element of appraisal to complete appraisal of all relevant factors. I know two ways in which to appraise a keris, and we are talking only the keris itself, only the blade, the dress is not considered in this exercise. The reason for this is that it is the keris that is considered to be the way in which wealth can be stored, the dress is not thought of in the same way. The first way is:- sepuh - wutuh - tangguh = age, condition, style/features sepuh = old, wutuh = whole, unbroken, tangguh = characteristics (in this context) you will notice that when we get into the world of the experts, the ahli keris, that word "tangguh" tends to have a different understanding attached to it than the understanding that is current with many people today. To understand this better it is worth noting the Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo(Alm.) who was a late 20th century maker working in Surakarta and who held a position in the Surakarta Karaton hierarchy gave the tangguh of the keris he made as "Mataram", not "Surakarta", although he worked in Surakarta, and not 'Kamardikan" although he worked during the period following Merdeka. He described his keris as "tangguh Mataram" because they bore the features of a keris that was able to be classified as Mataram. So, in a typically Javanese fashion the word "tangguh" means exactly what you want it to mean, no more, and no less. ( I have been told by people who should know what they are talking about, that Humpty Dumpty was actually born in Klaten, Central Jawa, and only moved to Wonderland later in life). The second, more modern approach to appraisal is :- morjasirapngun = pamor, waja(steel), wesi(iron), rap (garap), wangun(appearance/shape) I was taught that this second way is one that was invented in the market place, mainly because it is easier to manipulate to create a favourable impression. During the 1980's & 1990's the advanced people whom I knew only ever used the sepuh/wutuh/tangguh base for appraisal, but what needs to be understood is this, each of these component parts link together and incorporate other ideas. For example, "sepuh" relates to how old the keris is, but then the characteristics of the keris, including its form, its craftsmanship & its characteristics including its "feeling" relate to "tangguh", the idea of "wutuh" relates to its state of preservation, and that state of preservation encompasses the perceived age. The whole process is circular, which once again epitomises Javanese thinking. Put into simple terms, we cannot use the same parameters for the appraisal and thus the value base of a Surakarta period keris and a Mataram period keris. Then there is the concept of "honour". Not all periods have the same degree of "honour" in Javanese thought, for instance, Majapahit was the Golden Age, it is drenched in honour. Kartosuro is an era of little or no honour. As PBII said after the Kartosuro kraton had been sacked:- "I will not sit on a throne that has been defiled by dogs". So the honour attached to any period has a value too:- a pristine Kartosuro keris is, because of its period of origin, worth less than a Majapahit keris that is not in particularly good condition. The short answer to your question Bob, is that the whole point of appraisal is to establish value, if a blade has not travelled well, then after other factors have been considered, it is worth less than a blade with similar age and the same tangguh but that is better preserved.

29th March 2022, 06:41 AM	#10
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 146	Hi Alan, What is the order of importance in morjasirapngun? Is garap the most important and pamor the least important? Thank you

29th March 2022, 07:21 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	The perspective can change YS. If I adopt Pak Parman's perspective, I think that perhaps the most important single thing is the thing that is not mentioned:- honour. But when it comes to what we can see, Pak Parman, and as far as I was able to discern, all his friends & associates placed garap above everything else, but we need to understand that the idea of "garap" does not refer just to the sculpting, it also refers to the way in which the pamor was handled, for example, well handled wos wutah is always preferable to badly handled ron duru. However, never lose sight of the fact that this is appraisal, that is, the objective is to fix a market price, and that market price must reflect the potential value of the investment, thus the final figure reached by the appraisal is always a balance of all elements concerned. My own way of thinking of this is in real estate terms:- best house in the worst street or worst house in the best street, and that depends upon what we can identify as the "street" that the keris is in. This is a decision making process, the guidelines are just that:- guidelines, it does not mean that those guidelines are graven in stone.