Need Help Identifying an antique firearm

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2013, 06:02 PM

Very impressive Aptheo, nice advance research before posting, and welcome to our forums!
I agree this is SE Asian, and though I am far from having any experience with firearms in general, this would appear to be one of the crudely fashioned 'Saturday night special' type guns used in Viet Nam. These seem to be versions of the so called 'Tonkin guns' used by highland tribes north of Hanoi, and other tribes collectively known as Montagnards.

There were many of these in the expected spectrum of variations brought back by forces in Viet Nam in the 60s, and while pretty rough, they are intriguing examples of the ersatz weapons used by these tribes in those times.

aptheo · 12th July 2013, 07:52 PM

Thanks for the info guys! I am wondering, what exactly tipped you off that this is SE Asian? I am interning with a museum in Southern California, and they asked me to photograph the object for our records. When I saw the details, I began to question them. Aside from what's in my first post, apparently the donor told us that the object was found in Trabuco Canyon. Trabuco Canyon is so named because apparently a friar that was travelling with the Spanish Explorer Gaspar de Portola lost his trabuco while passing through. This would have happened around 1769-70. Since the gun is definitely not a flintlock, I was almost positive that this was not the trabuco of Trabuco Canyon (as was implied by the records) and thought it might be older, since it seemed to be some kind of matchlock. As I looked at older weapons, however, nothing really seemed to match. My guess was that it was some kind of home-brewed thing, or some kind of serpentine matchlock, but I had no way of dating it. If you could recommend books or sources that I could cite for research, I would be extremely grateful. The attached picture is from a Wikipedia article. It's a matchlock from Germany that I thought seemed a possible match. But since you both seem to agree this is SEA, should I re-post this in another section of the forum? Sorry my posts are so lengthy, this project has plagued me for months and I'm excited to finally get some answers.

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2013, 07:35 AM

Actually for me I would consider my input to be more recollection of material from various notes and references concerning Viet Nam era souveniers and research on a dha brought back also in the 60s. That case resulted in some contact with a professor of anthropology at University of California who was at that time studying the Hmong tribes of Montagnards.
These tribal groups were key allies with American troops in Viet Nam, and many resituated in Southern California.
I grew up in Southern California and am quite familiar with Trabuco Canyon and so on.
As you are well aware, many donors to museums unknowingly pass on data with items which unfortunately corresponds to family lore and often broad assumptions. As with most forms of antiquities or collected items, often exuberant optimism leads to misidentifications, so your further research is clearly prudent and well placed.
As you have seen, the character of this piece seems quite modern,though some of the components seem well aged. In these regions in Viet Nam, use of old components which certainly may have been around in degree, was not uncommon for these Montagnard tribes in these instances.

I am not aware of any specific publications, however many of the gun magazines have had numerous articles about weaponry used by these Montagnards during the Viet Nam war so I would check thier indexes.
Also Scott Rodell of Seven Stars Trading in Virginia and his colleague Philip Tom of California are probably the foremost authorities who may offer more insight on these kinds of arms.

aptheo · 14th July 2013, 08:32 PM

Jim,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Yes, after working here for a year now, I have learned that the idea of a specifically trained museum professional is really a recent trend, and a lot (A LOT) of our work involves correcting errors made in the past. Family lore is the bane of good history. I will look into contacting those two individuals, I am very interested in finding out more about the gun. Even though it's not Portola's trabuco, it still seems like it could be a great piece of history.

drac2k · 6th August 2013, 01:28 PM

I have seen this style of wall gun used by the Japanese.These matchlocks were sold to them by the early Portuguese traders; as the Japanese evolved, it is not unimaginable that an obsolete weapon would be traded, sold, or stolen by another bellicose people of less martial sophistication.
The gun is a poor reflection on it's initial glory, however as a thing of great worth, it was modified, repaired, and patched, by various different owners painting a mural of many different owners and as such it is a beautiful canvas on which many wonderful stories can be inferred !
David

12th July 2013, 07:52 PM	#2
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	Thanks for the info guys! I am wondering, what exactly tipped you off that this is SE Asian? I am interning with a museum in Southern California, and they asked me to photograph the object for our records. When I saw the details, I began to question them. Aside from what's in my first post, apparently the donor told us that the object was found in Trabuco Canyon. Trabuco Canyon is so named because apparently a friar that was travelling with the Spanish Explorer Gaspar de Portola lost his trabuco while passing through. This would have happened around 1769-70. Since the gun is definitely not a flintlock, I was almost positive that this was not the trabuco of Trabuco Canyon (as was implied by the records) and thought it might be older, since it seemed to be some kind of matchlock. As I looked at older weapons, however, nothing really seemed to match. My guess was that it was some kind of home-brewed thing, or some kind of serpentine matchlock, but I had no way of dating it. If you could recommend books or sources that I could cite for research, I would be extremely grateful. The attached picture is from a Wikipedia article. It's a matchlock from Germany that I thought seemed a possible match. But since you both seem to agree this is SEA, should I re-post this in another section of the forum? Sorry my posts are so lengthy, this project has plagued me for months and I'm excited to finally get some answers. Attached Images

12th July 2013, 06:02 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Very impressive Aptheo, nice advance research before posting, and welcome to our forums! I agree this is SE Asian, and though I am far from having any experience with firearms in general, this would appear to be one of the crudely fashioned 'Saturday night special' type guns used in Viet Nam. These seem to be versions of the so called 'Tonkin guns' used by highland tribes north of Hanoi, and other tribes collectively known as Montagnards. There were many of these in the expected spectrum of variations brought back by forces in Viet Nam in the 60s, and while pretty rough, they are intriguing examples of the ersatz weapons used by these tribes in those times.

13th July 2013, 07:35 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Actually for me I would consider my input to be more recollection of material from various notes and references concerning Viet Nam era souveniers and research on a dha brought back also in the 60s. That case resulted in some contact with a professor of anthropology at University of California who was at that time studying the Hmong tribes of Montagnards. These tribal groups were key allies with American troops in Viet Nam, and many resituated in Southern California. I grew up in Southern California and am quite familiar with Trabuco Canyon and so on. As you are well aware, many donors to museums unknowingly pass on data with items which unfortunately corresponds to family lore and often broad assumptions. As with most forms of antiquities or collected items, often exuberant optimism leads to misidentifications, so your further research is clearly prudent and well placed. As you have seen, the character of this piece seems quite modern,though some of the components seem well aged. In these regions in Viet Nam, use of old components which certainly may have been around in degree, was not uncommon for these Montagnard tribes in these instances. I am not aware of any specific publications, however many of the gun magazines have had numerous articles about weaponry used by these Montagnards during the Viet Nam war so I would check thier indexes. Also Scott Rodell of Seven Stars Trading in Virginia and his colleague Philip Tom of California are probably the foremost authorities who may offer more insight on these kinds of arms.

14th July 2013, 08:32 PM	#4
aptheo Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Southern California Posts: 8	Jim, Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Yes, after working here for a year now, I have learned that the idea of a specifically trained museum professional is really a recent trend, and a lot (A LOT) of our work involves correcting errors made in the past. Family lore is the bane of good history. I will look into contacting those two individuals, I am very interested in finding out more about the gun. Even though it's not Portola's trabuco, it still seems like it could be a great piece of history.

6th August 2013, 01:28 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	I have seen this style of wall gun used by the Japanese.These matchlocks were sold to them by the early Portuguese traders; as the Japanese evolved, it is not unimaginable that an obsolete weapon would be traded, sold, or stolen by another bellicose people of less martial sophistication. The gun is a poor reflection on it's initial glory, however as a thing of great worth, it was modified, repaired, and patched, by various different owners painting a mural of many different owners and as such it is a beautiful canvas on which many wonderful stories can be inferred ! David