Oceanic Club-Opinions?

Robert · 27th June 2013, 04:42 AM

Hello Dolly-Dagger and welcome to the forum. While I know absolutely nothing that can help you on your club we do have some very knowledgeable member who should be along shortly to help answer your questions. I am however looking forward to more photos of your modest 60 plus collection of 60 plus oceanic clubs.

Again, Welcome aboard.

Best,
Robert

VANDOO · 27th June 2013, 06:40 AM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

WE ARE ALWAYS PLEASED TO SEE ITEMS FROM OTHER COLLECTORS AND TO GAIN AND SHARE KNOWLEGE. THE CLUB YOU SHOW IS A VERY NICE ONE WITH A INTERESTING CARVED DESIGN SIMULAR TO WHAT I HAVE SEEN FROM FIJI BUT PERHAPS WITH TONGAN INFLUENCE DUE TO THE VARIATIONS IN PATTERN.
TWO FORMS OF FIJI POLE CLUB FIT THIS FORM THE BOWAI WHICH IS GENERALLY LONGER AND THE GADI. I PERSONALLY WOULD CLASSIFY THIS AS THE GADI FORM DUE TO THE SIZE AND FLARED STRIKING END.
SEE FIJIAN WEAPONS & WARFARE BY FERGUS CLUNIE PLATES 11 AND 10, TEXT ON PAGE 56. THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS ON PLATE 18 WITH TEXT ON PAGE 58.
THE BOOK LISTED ABOVE IS THE BEST I KNOW OF FOR REFRENCE ON FIJI WEAPONS SO IF YOU DON'T HAVE A COPY IT WOULD BE A GOOD REFRENCE TO GET. A VERY NICE CLUB THANKS FOR SHAREING.

Tim Simmons · 27th June 2013, 10:14 AM

Very nice indeed. I would say 60+ like this is far from a modest collection!!!!

I am adding illustrations from "Fijian Weapons & Warfare, Fergus Clunie"
You can see a great variety of handle decoration and I am sure this is not the definitive list. A pole club is a basic design and world wide. There is the possibility that it could come from other Polynesian Islands perhaps ruling out Samoa. As I say very nice and I look forward to seeing and discussing more. I have a staff/club coming in the next week and will and here even though it is Melanesian.

trenchwarfare · 27th June 2013, 03:08 PM

Welcome aboard Dolly. Show us more.

Sajen · 27th June 2013, 04:50 PM

Welcome Michael! Nice club.

Regards,

Detlef

dolly-dagger · 28th June 2013, 12:26 AM

Hi Folks,
Thank you all very much for the kind welcomes,and thank you for your valued opinions.Thank you also for posting images from the Clunie reference.I do have the Clunie book,as well as many others that I have been able to find,regarding Fiji,and Pacific/Oceanic tribal art.I was of the opinion that this could be,what was referred to as a "wife beater" being so short in length? I do remember reading of such clubs in Clunie's book,or perhaps Fiji and the Fijians.I also thought the top half of the handle had a bit of what looks like Maori influence? 60+ clubs is really rather modest when one considers the vast variety/selection,and variations of clubs throughout the Pacific region.In Fiji alone,one might assume.....just by looking at Fergus Clunie's publishing,that with the many styles,and variations of clubs found in Fiji.......60+ is modest.Nevertheless...thank you all once again and I will hopefully return with some more queries in the near future.I am trying to post a few more images for those who asked.Thank you,Michael

Tim Simmons · 28th June 2013, 05:30 PM

I do not think you can take what is written in many books even based on some limited historic observation as some sort of religious text and turn your brain off {Lord knows so many people find comfort that way}.

Yes one might beat your wife with such a beautiful club, but I believe the Fijians were skilled warriors. Weapons would be made for certain weights, grades and ages of the warrior, and indeed the task demanded of the weapon. Just like soldiers today, an elite snatch raid in a city would be carried out with speed and light weapons not a mortar or heavy belt fed machine gun.

I have a similar item that fits the discussion. A near example is in "Fijian Artifacts, Tasmanian Museum and Art Gallery, Rod Ewins" which I add. Said to be a walking staff. 120cm long so a bit shorter than the one in the book, and considerably finer. You can fight with a staff just a much as you can walk with it. In my example you can see that it has had contact with the ground but that does not mean it is not an effective weapon. The item may be thin but the wood is heavy and dense. A big heavy club might be very good at smashing human bodies but light fast weapons in the hands of warriors, confident in their abilities with superb foot work will have delivered at least three blows after dodging a slow heavy club swing. Leaving your enemy to be killed by your fellows with the slow heavy club. Anybody who has studied a martial art will understand this. It might be a good idea to ask yourself does the author have any weapons training? A wife beater reinforces the idea of savagery, Fijians in the past may well have been hard on their women but I do not believe that they blundered into surprise raids, ambushes and battles with just big heavy clubs. Also you have to think of sport, contests as entertainment tournaments, light protection and disputes within a Fijians own chiefs local. I am showing it with other pole clubs of similar weight.

27th June 2013, 10:14 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Very nice indeed. I would say 60+ like this is far from a modest collection!!!! I am adding illustrations from "Fijian Weapons & Warfare, Fergus Clunie" You can see a great variety of handle decoration and I am sure this is not the definitive list. A pole club is a basic design and world wide. There is the possibility that it could come from other Polynesian Islands perhaps ruling out Samoa. As I say very nice and I look forward to seeing and discussing more. I have a staff/club coming in the next week and will and here even though it is Melanesian. Attached Images

28th June 2013, 12:26 AM	#6
dolly-dagger Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 4	Pole Club Hi Folks, Thank you all very much for the kind welcomes,and thank you for your valued opinions.Thank you also for posting images from the Clunie reference.I do have the Clunie book,as well as many others that I have been able to find,regarding Fiji,and Pacific/Oceanic tribal art.I was of the opinion that this could be,what was referred to as a "wife beater" being so short in length? I do remember reading of such clubs in Clunie's book,or perhaps Fiji and the Fijians.I also thought the top half of the handle had a bit of what looks like Maori influence? 60+ clubs is really rather modest when one considers the vast variety/selection,and variations of clubs throughout the Pacific region.In Fiji alone,one might assume.....just by looking at Fergus Clunie's publishing,that with the many styles,and variations of clubs found in Fiji.......60+ is modest.Nevertheless...thank you all once again and I will hopefully return with some more queries in the near future.I am trying to post a few more images for those who asked.Thank you,Michael Attached Images Last edited by dolly-dagger; 28th June 2013 at 01:23 AM.

28th June 2013, 05:30 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	I do not think you can take what is written in many books even based on some limited historic observation as some sort of religious text and turn your brain off {Lord knows so many people find comfort that way}. Yes one might beat your wife with such a beautiful club, but I believe the Fijians were skilled warriors. Weapons would be made for certain weights, grades and ages of the warrior, and indeed the task demanded of the weapon. Just like soldiers today, an elite snatch raid in a city would be carried out with speed and light weapons not a mortar or heavy belt fed machine gun. I have a similar item that fits the discussion. A near example is in "Fijian Artifacts, Tasmanian Museum and Art Gallery, Rod Ewins" which I add. Said to be a walking staff. 120cm long so a bit shorter than the one in the book, and considerably finer. You can fight with a staff just a much as you can walk with it. In my example you can see that it has had contact with the ground but that does not mean it is not an effective weapon. The item may be thin but the wood is heavy and dense. A big heavy club might be very good at smashing human bodies but light fast weapons in the hands of warriors, confident in their abilities with superb foot work will have delivered at least three blows after dodging a slow heavy club swing. Leaving your enemy to be killed by your fellows with the slow heavy club. Anybody who has studied a martial art will understand this. It might be a good idea to ask yourself does the author have any weapons training? A wife beater reinforces the idea of savagery, Fijians in the past may well have been hard on their women but I do not believe that they blundered into surprise raids, ambushes and battles with just big heavy clubs. Also you have to think of sport, contests as entertainment tournaments, light protection and disputes within a Fijians own chiefs local. I am showing it with other pole clubs of similar weight. Attached Images

27th June 2013, 04:42 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Dolly-Dagger and welcome to the forum. While I know absolutely nothing that can help you on your club we do have some very knowledgeable member who should be along shortly to help answer your questions. I am however looking forward to more photos of your modest 60 plus collection of 60 plus oceanic clubs. Again, Welcome aboard. Best, Robert

27th June 2013, 06:40 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM WE ARE ALWAYS PLEASED TO SEE ITEMS FROM OTHER COLLECTORS AND TO GAIN AND SHARE KNOWLEGE. THE CLUB YOU SHOW IS A VERY NICE ONE WITH A INTERESTING CARVED DESIGN SIMULAR TO WHAT I HAVE SEEN FROM FIJI BUT PERHAPS WITH TONGAN INFLUENCE DUE TO THE VARIATIONS IN PATTERN. TWO FORMS OF FIJI POLE CLUB FIT THIS FORM THE BOWAI WHICH IS GENERALLY LONGER AND THE GADI. I PERSONALLY WOULD CLASSIFY THIS AS THE GADI FORM DUE TO THE SIZE AND FLARED STRIKING END. SEE FIJIAN WEAPONS & WARFARE BY FERGUS CLUNIE PLATES 11 AND 10, TEXT ON PAGE 56. THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS ON PLATE 18 WITH TEXT ON PAGE 58. THE BOOK LISTED ABOVE IS THE BEST I KNOW OF FOR REFRENCE ON FIJI WEAPONS SO IF YOU DON'T HAVE A COPY IT WOULD BE A GOOD REFRENCE TO GET. A VERY NICE CLUB THANKS FOR SHAREING.

27th June 2013, 03:08 PM	#4
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Welcome aboard Dolly. Show us more.

27th June 2013, 04:50 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,340	Welcome Michael! Nice club. Regards, Detlef