Omani Kattara/Sayf help with proper dating.

Dmitry · 19th June 2013, 04:08 PM

Forgive my ignorance, and not being familiar with the Omani slave trade. If I am not mistaken the majority of slaves in the Americas were from Western Africa. while Zanzibar is obviously on the Indian Ocean coast, so I don't think the West African slaves would make it all the way across the continent, while there were supplies of local slaves available. Or the slave traders procured slaves from the Western Africa and marched them for 1500 miles to the Eastern Coast?

Edit- just read this concise view of the Omani Sultanate.
http://histclo.com/country/me/oman/hist/oh-slave.html
Now I know more about the slavery on the East Coast of Africa, and the dominance of the Omani Sultanate along the Coast.
Still, to see the Omani and Manding weapons that are so similar [even though they are quite different], is something I didn't expect. Judging by the shape of the hilt without any kind of hand protection, long enough to easily grasp with both hands, and the long meaty blade, makes me think that it would serve best for a type of a beheading implement.

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2013, 08:24 PM

The slave trade on the west coast of Africa and into Americas was a quite independant branch of that also unfortunate business from that which went on with Africas east coast and Zanzibar.
That trade also extended into Darfur via routes inland and trans Sahara into Mali as I understand, regrettably this activity continues in these regions of Darfur even today.
The west coast of Africa into the Americas and Caribbean had virtually nothing to to with that of the east coast in any significant degree that I am aware of.

It is important to remember that the cylindrical hilt swords typically worn as discussed here, were most often status oriented accoutrements worn by Omani merchants. In my opinion this fashion may well have been adopted by the Manding merchants in Saharan regions. While there is little doubt that most of these swords with thier trade blades would have been suitable for combat, much as the case with court and civilian swords , it is unlikely that in most cases they were used much.

The Omani ceremonial kattaras for the Funoon events are an altogether independant group as well discussed by Ibrahiim on other threads.

Dmitry · 20th June 2013, 05:51 AM

Thank you, Jim.
So these swords were like the "kinjals on steroids", so to speak, worn mostly for ceremonial purposes and as part of Omani dress. I wonder if the Manding people also adopted certain aspects of that dress, along with the swords, like the Cossacks did with the kinjals and the cherkeska coats that they took on from the various Caucasus peoples. That would kind of hint on what sword came first, the Manding or the Sayf...

laEspadaAncha · 20th June 2013, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Forgive my ignorance, and not being familiar with the Omani slave trade. If I am not mistaken the majority of slaves in the Americas were from Western Africa. while Zanzibar is obviously on the Indian Ocean coast, so I don't think the West African slaves would make it all the way across the continent, while there were supplies of local slaves available. Or the slave traders procured slaves from the Western Africa and marched them for 1500 miles to the Eastern Coast?

Zanzibari slave traders extended their reach well into equatorial Africa. The notorious slaver Hamed bin Muhammad, a.k.a., Tippu Tib, was appointed governor of the Stanley Falls district of the Congo Free State (by King Leopold II) in the late 19th century, which positioned him on the navigable Congo River. While the territory from which he captured slaves ranged primarily south of the Congo (well into Central Africa, around the 8th parallel south), merchant trade from downriver was the bloodline of all upriver communities. It was up the mouth of the Congo by which Stanley transversed Africa in his 'rescue' of Emin Pasha in 1887. Tippu Tib accompanied him on this particular voyage, which in fact originated in Zanzibar.

Tippu Tib:

In the map attached below, the inner circle is the approximate location of Stanley Falls, while the ellipse (roughly) represents the area over which Tippu Tib poached ivory and captured slaves.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th June 2013, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Zanzibari slave traders extended their reach well into equatorial Africa. The notorious slaver Hamed bin Muhammad, a.k.a., Tippu Tib, was appointed governor of the Stanley Falls district of the Congo Free State (by King Leopold II) in the late 19th century, which positioned him on the navigable Congo River. While the territory from which he captured slaves ranged primarily south of the Congo (well into Central Africa, around the 8th parallel south), merchant trade from downriver was the bloodline of all upriver communities. It was up the mouth of the Congo by which Stanley transversed Africa in his 'rescue' of Emin Pasha in 1887. Tippu Tib accompanied him on this particular voyage, which in fact originated in Zanzibar.

Tippu Tib:

In the map attached below, the inner circle is the approximate location of Stanley Falls, while the ellipse (roughly) represents the area over which Tippu Tib poached ivory and captured slaves.

Salaams laEspadaAncha; Tippu Tip controlled over 2 million square miles of territory.. He was, however, a latecomer to the scene regarding the curved weapon; The Omani Kattara he is seen wearing.. I put the transission of that hilt onto straight Omani Danciing Swords earlier more likely with his grand father or great grandfather (or in their time)... and in about 1744 at the the start of the new dynasty. As for the actual play in developing the hilt I am not at all sure if it was influenced by... other African variants... but the Manding hilt makes sense.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes; see also
1. Kattara for comments http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

2. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Omani+Kattara

3. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16795

kahnjar1 · 21st June 2013, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams laEspadaAncha; Tippu Tip controlled over 2 million square miles of territory.. He was, however, a latecomer to the scene regarding the curved weapon; The Omani Kattara he is seen wearing.. I put the transission of that hilt onto straight Omani Danciing Swords earlier more likely with his grand father or great grandfather (or in their time)... and in about 1744 at the the start of the new dynasty. As for the actual play in developing the hilt I am not at all sure if it was influenced by... other African variants... but the Manding hilt makes sense.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes; see also
1. Kattara for comments http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

2. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Omani+Kattara

3. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16795

Simple observation

of the sword Tipu is wearing in the photo does not show an Omani type hilt, but rather a Manding style with visible "balls".

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st June 2013, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Simple observation

of the sword Tipu is wearing in the photo does not show an Omani type hilt, but rather a Manding style with visible "balls".

Salaams Khanjar I ..No its an Omani Kattara; Curved blade on a long hilt. The photo is quite late and I think 1890 something... By then the Royal Khanjar hilts had appeared sometime around 1850... which he is also wearing.

We are looking for the possible transmission of Manding to Omani Kattara swords pre 1744 before the Omani Kattara long hilt was accepted as the design for the honorific pageant and dancing sword... The Omani straight Sayf...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kahnjar1 · 21st June 2013, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Khanjar I ..No its an Omani Kattara; Curved blade on a long hilt. The photo is quite late and I think 1890 something... By then the Royal Khanjar hilts had appeared sometime around 1850... which he is also wearing.

We are looking for the possible transmission of Manding to Omani Kattara swords pre 1744 before the Omani Kattara long hilt was accepted as the design for the honorific pageant and dancing sword... The Omani straight Sayf...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

TVV · 21st June 2013, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Simple observation

of the sword Tipu is wearing in the photo does not show an Omani type hilt, but rather a Manding style with visible "balls".

Very good observation, I had not noticed before. The scabbard, however, is Omani in style, with silver(?) chape and metal rings.

Teodor

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd June 2013, 08:04 AM

Salaams all .. No the configuration is Omani Kattara with an odd / different pommel arrangement. Just looking around my collection of a few dozen such weapons (straight and curved) none of the pommels are standard..some in a knuckle bolt end style others tubular ended and some without a pommel. Others with a pommel hole but some without.

Tippu Tib is quite likely to have had the design added from his African travels and this perhaps shows the potential influence onto Omani Kattara particularly from Manding designs.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

kahnjar1 · 22nd June 2013, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all .. No the configuration is Omani Kattara with an odd / different pommel arrangement.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Sorry I forgot that everything is of Omani origin....................

19th June 2013, 04:08 PM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Forgive my ignorance, and not being familiar with the Omani slave trade. If I am not mistaken the majority of slaves in the Americas were from Western Africa. while Zanzibar is obviously on the Indian Ocean coast, so I don't think the West African slaves would make it all the way across the continent, while there were supplies of local slaves available. Or the slave traders procured slaves from the Western Africa and marched them for 1500 miles to the Eastern Coast? Edit- just read this concise view of the Omani Sultanate. http://histclo.com/country/me/oman/hist/oh-slave.html Now I know more about the slavery on the East Coast of Africa, and the dominance of the Omani Sultanate along the Coast. Still, to see the Omani and Manding weapons that are so similar [even though they are quite different], is something I didn't expect. Judging by the shape of the hilt without any kind of hand protection, long enough to easily grasp with both hands, and the long meaty blade, makes me think that it would serve best for a type of a beheading implement. Last edited by Dmitry; 19th June 2013 at 05:16 PM.

22nd June 2013, 08:04 AM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all .. No the configuration is Omani Kattara with an odd / different pommel arrangement. Just looking around my collection of a few dozen such weapons (straight and curved) none of the pommels are standard..some in a knuckle bolt end style others tubular ended and some without a pommel. Others with a pommel hole but some without. Tippu Tib is quite likely to have had the design added from his African travels and this perhaps shows the potential influence onto Omani Kattara particularly from Manding designs. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 22nd June 2013 at 10:00 AM.

19th June 2013, 08:24 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	The slave trade on the west coast of Africa and into Americas was a quite independant branch of that also unfortunate business from that which went on with Africas east coast and Zanzibar. That trade also extended into Darfur via routes inland and trans Sahara into Mali as I understand, regrettably this activity continues in these regions of Darfur even today. The west coast of Africa into the Americas and Caribbean had virtually nothing to to with that of the east coast in any significant degree that I am aware of. It is important to remember that the cylindrical hilt swords typically worn as discussed here, were most often status oriented accoutrements worn by Omani merchants. In my opinion this fashion may well have been adopted by the Manding merchants in Saharan regions. While there is little doubt that most of these swords with thier trade blades would have been suitable for combat, much as the case with court and civilian swords , it is unlikely that in most cases they were used much. The Omani ceremonial kattaras for the Funoon events are an altogether independant group as well discussed by Ibrahiim on other threads.

20th June 2013, 05:51 AM	#3
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Thank you, Jim. So these swords were like the "kinjals on steroids", so to speak, worn mostly for ceremonial purposes and as part of Omani dress. I wonder if the Manding people also adopted certain aspects of that dress, along with the swords, like the Cossacks did with the kinjals and the cherkeska coats that they took on from the various Caucasus peoples. That would kind of hint on what sword came first, the Manding or the Sayf...