Unusual gunong, from where?

Sajen · 11th June 2013, 10:59 PM

Just win this very unusual gunong by ebay. First I never have seen a gunong with a handle like this, I think it's a pot whale tooth. Unfortunately is the tip broken. But what seems to my eyes much more strange is the scabbard, could this be T'Boli or Bagobo?

All comments are very appreciated.

Detlef

Battara · 12th June 2013, 12:55 AM

I am wondering out loud - could this be an early version of a Sulu gunong (based on the ukkil on the wood scabbard and the fact that there is no okir on the guard)?

The catch to this theory though is the fact that the white metal mounts look newer to me.

Sajen · 12th June 2013, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I am wondering out loud - could this be an early version of a Sulu gunong (based on the ukkil on the wood scabbard and the fact that there is no okir on the guard)?

The catch to this theory though is the fact that the white metal mounts look newer to me.

Hi Jose,

thank you very much for your thoughts about this gunong. Blade form look as well to my eyes like an early form. So the ukkil is Sulu, was it usual to lime the ukkil on Sulu? Ask myself if the metal mounts could be from silver and are maybe fresh polished not long ago.

Best regards,

Detlef

David · 12th June 2013, 01:33 AM

I have always called them Sperm whales and had never heard the term "pot" whale, but apparently they are the same. I would agree that is probably the origin of this tooth as i have quite a similar one myself.

Rick · 12th June 2013, 02:56 AM

That is a very small tooth for the Spermacetti Whale .
Possibly from an immature one; also possibly a smaller toothed whale .

Yes, carving work like this often was accented with lime .

David · 12th June 2013, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

That is a very small tooth for the Spermacetti Whale .
Possibly from an immature one; also possibly a smaller toothed whale .

Yes, carving work like this often was accented with lime .

Well, it looks about the size of mine which is definitely IDed as Sperm whale. There is a great variety of tooth sizes in a whale mouth and of course, as you point out, younger and older whales.

Battara · 12th June 2013, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Jose,

thank you very much for your thoughts about this gunong. Blade form look as well to my eyes like an early form. So the ukkil is Sulu, was it usual to lime the ukkil on Sulu? Ask myself if the metal mounts could be from silver and are maybe fresh polished not long ago.

Best regards,

Detlef

The metal looks like polished brass or white metal, not silver.

VANDOO · 12th June 2013, 05:37 AM

IT COULD BE PILOT WHALE (SOMETIMES CALLED BLACK FISH) THERE ARE LARGE NUMBERS OF THEM AND THEY ARE NOTED FOR MASS STRANDINGS. BEFORE WHALEING AND THE SALE OF ALL WHALE MATERIAL WAS STOPPED THERE WERE PILOT, SPERM AND KILLER WHALE TEETH EASILY AVAILABLE.
THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS A LARGE TIGER TOOTH I HAVE SEEN TWO GUNONG WITH TIGER TEETH POMMELS OVER THE YEARS. WHAT ARE THE MEASURMENTS ON THIS KNIFE AND THE TOOTH.

kai · 12th June 2013, 10:01 AM

Hello Detlef,

This looks like a later gunong to me: the blade might be lamianted - the luk were probably made by stock removal though; the (brass?) crosspiece also doesn't look pre-WW2 to me either.

If it is small, the pommel could come from several toothed whales as suggested. It's interesting that they used the tooth tip for attaching the blade/ferrule and filed down the base of the tooth for the pommel end.

I'd be interested to see pics of the blade if you're going to etch it!

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 12th June 2013, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I have always called them Sperm whales and had never heard the term "pot" whale, but apparently they are the same. I would agree that is probably the origin of this tooth as i have quite a similar one myself.

Hi David,

you are correct, in Germany we call this whale "pot whale", my mistake! But found the term "pot whale" also in a online translator.

Can you post pictures from your example?

Best regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 12th June 2013, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

WHAT ARE THE MEASURMENTS ON THIS KNIFE AND THE TOOTH.

Hello Barry,

there wasn't given measurements in the ebay auction but I think that it is rather small. Will post measurements when I have received it.

BTW, there have been tigers on the Philippines?

Best regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 12th June 2013, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'd be interested to see pics of the blade if you're going to etch it!

Hello Kai,

will etch the blade when I have received it. Like you I think to see that the blade is laminated. Do you think that later gunongs will have a scabbard like this one? Frankly said I never have seen a gunong with such a scabbard.

Regards,

Detlef

VANDOO · 12th June 2013, 07:50 PM

NO TIGERS IN THE PHILIPPINES UNLESS YOU COUNT SOME OF THE WOMEN WHEN THEY GET MAD.

I SUSPECT ALL SORTS OF IVORY ARRIVED VIA TRADE TEETH, TUSKS, ECT TIGER PARTS ARE USED IN CHINESE MEDICINE (ACTUALLY I SUSPECT THERE IS NOT A KNOWN SUBSTANCE IN THE UNIVERSE THAT IS NOT

)
THE TOOTH IS POSSIBLY A LATER ADDITION TO THE KNIFE OR THE SHOP HAD THE TOOTH LAYING AROUND AND THE BUYER REQUESTED IT OR THEY JUST PUT IT TOGETHER.

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TELL IF ITS WHALE ON CLOSE INSPECTION AS THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN SHAPE AND OUTSIDE TEXTURE THAN BEAR, SEALS OR THE BIG CATS TEETH. THE GUM LINE SHOWING IN THE PICTURES LOOKS A BIT STRANGE FOR A WHALE BUT ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO TELL A LOT FROM PICTURES.

Sajen · 12th June 2013, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

NO TIGERS IN THE PHILIPPINES UNLESS YOU COUNT SOME OF THE WOMEN WHEN THEY GET MAD.

I SUSPECT ALL SORTS OF IVORY ARRIVED VIA TRADE TEETH, TUSKS, ECT TIGER PARTS ARE USED IN CHINESE MEDICINE (ACTUALLY I SUSPECT THERE IS NOT A KNOWN SUBSTANCE IN THE UNIVERSE THAT IS NOT

)
THE TOOTH IS POSSIBLY A LATER ADDITION TO THE KNIFE OR THE SHOP HAD THE TOOTH LAYING AROUND AND THE BUYER REQUESTED IT OR THEY JUST PUT IT TOGETHER.

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TELL IF ITS WHALE ON CLOSE INSPECTION AS THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN SHAPE AND OUTSIDE TEXTURE THAN BEAR, SEALS OR THE BIG CATS TEETH. THE GUM LINE SHOWING IN THE PICTURES LOOKS A BIT STRANGE FOR A WHALE BUT ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO TELL A LOT FROM PICTURES.

Yes, agree complete with you that most of the "ivory" sorts are traded from other parts of the world.
After I have received it I should be able to tell more about the material and as well if it is original to the blade or a later addition.

Best regards,

Detlef

Rick · 12th June 2013, 11:51 PM

Unless that is a miniature Gunong it's not a Pilot Whale tooth of the size we find around here .

Looks like white brass or german silver .
I love the fat little luks .

Battara · 13th June 2013, 12:22 AM

The other thing that makes me hesitate on calling this early are the luks - they are not the style used in earlier blades.

Curious to see if the blade is laminated or not.

As far as the scabbard is concerned, I have never seen one carved like this before.

VANDOO · 13th June 2013, 01:02 AM

THE SCABBARD CARVING LOOKS A LOT LIKE THAT DONE ON THE PARANG SCABBARDS FROM JAVA DISCUSSED IN OLD POSTS.

Robert · 13th June 2013, 06:41 AM

Hello Detlef, Very interesting gunong you have there. I cannot really tell from the photos for sure but the end of the tooth looks to be either worn or broken in an odd manner. Just to create more confusion could this possibly be a dugong tooth/tusk?

Best,
Robert

David · 13th June 2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

you are correct, in Germany we call this whale "pot whale", my mistake! But found the term "pot whale" also in a online translator.
Can you post pictures from your example?

Sorry Detlef, i can't post mine as it has been made into a rather personal ritual item that i do not show around. But i am fairly certain it is the same material and when i bought mine back in the 1960s it was positively IDed as Sperm whale.
Here are some more images of Sperm whale teeth and one made into a small knife handle for a sgian dubh. The teeth in a Sperm what come in a great variety of sizes from the much larger back teeth generally used scrimshaw to small teeth in the front of the jaw.

Sajen · 13th June 2013, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry Detlef, i can't post mine as it has been made into a rather personal ritual item that i do not show around. But i am fairly certain it is the same material and when i bought mine back in the 1960s it was positively IDed as Sperm whale.
Here are some more images of Sperm whale teeth and one made into a small knife handle for a sgian dubh. The teeth in a Sperm what come in a great variety of sizes from the much larger back teeth generally used scrimshaw to small teeth in the front of the jaw.

Hello David,

no problem, the pictures you have shown speak for themselve and I was nearly sure by my first guess that it is a sperm whale tooth.

Best regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 13th June 2013, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello Detlef, Very interesting gunong you have there. I cannot really tell from the photos for sure but the end of the tooth looks to be either worn or broken in an odd manner. Just to create more confusion could this possibly be a dugong tooth/tusk?

Best,
Robert

Hello Robert,

thank you. Agree with you that it is difficult to see by the pictures how the end is broken. Will know more when I have received it. Regarding about the handle material I am with David but who knows? But maybe I will be able to tell more when I have it in my hands.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 13th June 2013, 06:06 PM

I don't think this id dunong tusk. Dunong has a different surface character. See this example.

Bangkaya · 15th June 2013, 06:43 AM

The scabbard and the decorative motifs look Waray....

Battara · 15th June 2013, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bangkaya

The scabbard and the decorative motifs look Waray....

Bangkaya, would you happen to have pictures/examples of Waray-Waray work?

David · 15th June 2013, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Bangkaya, would you happen to have pictures/examples of Waray-Waray work?

I would also love to see examples if you have any Bangkaya.
José, if i am not mistaken i believe that Waray-Waray is the language and that the people themselves are referred to simply as Waray.
It seems that this language is spoken across Samar, Billiran and Leyte and i suppose that means that there are various tribes that come under the heading of the Waray people. Do all these people share the same motifs as well as their language?

Sajen · 15th June 2013, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bangkaya

The scabbard and the decorative motifs look Waray....

Interesting.... Would also like to see examples.

Regards,

Detlef

Spunjer · 16th June 2013, 02:00 AM

don't have one on hand, but a good way to see Waray motifs would be on some of the garabs...

Bangkaya · 17th June 2013, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

don't have one on hand, but a good way to see Waray motifs would be on some of the garabs...

Sorry for the late reply, but I assumed most collectors of Filipino weaponry would be familiar with Waray swords and design motifs. David is correct that the Waray are the ethno-linguistic group hailing from Leyte, Samar, and Bilaran. They are surrounded by the Ilonggos and the Cebuanos and are fiercely proud of their heritage. As Spunger has mentioned the weapon most closely associated with them is the garab made infamous by the pulajanes faction (mainly in Samar) and early examples of the binulang sansibar (though later sansibars have more of a Cebuano influence due the migration of Cebuano panday clans to the Carigara and Jaro regions of Leyte....but I digress.) More people would be familiar with the later examples of Waray weaponry with all those WWII souvenir "Victory" "talibons" usually marked with Leyte 1945 on the scabbards.

I realize my initial response was a bit vague. What I implied was that the scabbard looked Waray and may not be original to the dagger. This is actually quite common in the Philippines. I have an old junggayan barung with a replacement Ilonggo scabbard (it looks weird, but fits like a glove.) The gunong itself could be Moro (though I'm not 100% certain it is, too.) The reason I say Waray is because of the design motifs on that gunong scabbard show more Waray traits than any Bangsamoro traits from any of the Muslim peoples...especially those of Lupah Sug. For one, Moro design motifs would be more organic and amorphous with less defined borders. This scabbard has heavily defined motif borders and panels with more repetitive geometric elements....definitive Waray design elements. Also, there is a definite representation of a flower in the center of the scabbard....you would never see that on a Moro scabbard. As for photos, I've seen several excellent examples of Waray weapons such as pulajanes garabs posted here by several members of this forum to study and compare.

Regards,

Bangkaya

Battara · 17th June 2013, 07:03 AM

Bangkaya, you do have a good point of the flower not being in the middle of the scabbard of the typical Moro scabbard. I am with you with the gunong perhaps not being Moro, though I am still of the opinion that the piece may be later.

11th June 2013, 10:59 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Unusual gunong, from where? Just win this very unusual gunong by ebay. First I never have seen a gunong with a handle like this, I think it's a pot whale tooth. Unfortunately is the tip broken. But what seems to my eyes much more strange is the scabbard, could this be T'Boli or Bagobo? All comments are very appreciated. Detlef Attached Images

12th June 2013, 11:51 PM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Unless that is a miniature Gunong it's not a Pilot Whale tooth of the size we find around here . Looks like white brass or german silver . I love the fat little luks . Last edited by Rick; 13th June 2013 at 12:03 AM.

13th June 2013, 06:06 PM	#22
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	I don't think this id dunong tusk. Dunong has a different surface character. See this example. Attached Images

12th June 2013, 12:55 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I am wondering out loud - could this be an early version of a Sulu gunong (based on the ukkil on the wood scabbard and the fact that there is no okir on the guard)? The catch to this theory though is the fact that the white metal mounts look newer to me.

12th June 2013, 01:33 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	I have always called them Sperm whales and had never heard the term "pot" whale, but apparently they are the same. I would agree that is probably the origin of this tooth as i have quite a similar one myself.

12th June 2013, 02:56 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	That is a very small tooth for the Spermacetti Whale . Possibly from an immature one; also possibly a smaller toothed whale . Yes, carving work like this often was accented with lime .

12th June 2013, 05:37 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT COULD BE PILOT WHALE (SOMETIMES CALLED BLACK FISH) THERE ARE LARGE NUMBERS OF THEM AND THEY ARE NOTED FOR MASS STRANDINGS. BEFORE WHALEING AND THE SALE OF ALL WHALE MATERIAL WAS STOPPED THERE WERE PILOT, SPERM AND KILLER WHALE TEETH EASILY AVAILABLE. THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS A LARGE TIGER TOOTH I HAVE SEEN TWO GUNONG WITH TIGER TEETH POMMELS OVER THE YEARS. WHAT ARE THE MEASURMENTS ON THIS KNIFE AND THE TOOTH.

12th June 2013, 10:01 AM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Detlef, This looks like a later gunong to me: the blade might be lamianted - the luk were probably made by stock removal though; the (brass?) crosspiece also doesn't look pre-WW2 to me either. If it is small, the pommel could come from several toothed whales as suggested. It's interesting that they used the tooth tip for attaching the blade/ferrule and filed down the base of the tooth for the pommel end. I'd be interested to see pics of the blade if you're going to etch it! Regards, Kai

12th June 2013, 07:50 PM	#13
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NO TIGERS IN THE PHILIPPINES UNLESS YOU COUNT SOME OF THE WOMEN WHEN THEY GET MAD. I SUSPECT ALL SORTS OF IVORY ARRIVED VIA TRADE TEETH, TUSKS, ECT TIGER PARTS ARE USED IN CHINESE MEDICINE (ACTUALLY I SUSPECT THERE IS NOT A KNOWN SUBSTANCE IN THE UNIVERSE THAT IS NOT ) THE TOOTH IS POSSIBLY A LATER ADDITION TO THE KNIFE OR THE SHOP HAD THE TOOTH LAYING AROUND AND THE BUYER REQUESTED IT OR THEY JUST PUT IT TOGETHER. YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO TELL IF ITS WHALE ON CLOSE INSPECTION AS THEY ARE DIFFERENT IN SHAPE AND OUTSIDE TEXTURE THAN BEAR, SEALS OR THE BIG CATS TEETH. THE GUM LINE SHOWING IN THE PICTURES LOOKS A BIT STRANGE FOR A WHALE BUT ITS NOT POSSIBLE TO TELL A LOT FROM PICTURES.

13th June 2013, 12:22 AM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	The other thing that makes me hesitate on calling this early are the luks - they are not the style used in earlier blades. Curious to see if the blade is laminated or not. As far as the scabbard is concerned, I have never seen one carved like this before.

13th June 2013, 01:02 AM	#17
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE SCABBARD CARVING LOOKS A LOT LIKE THAT DONE ON THE PARANG SCABBARDS FROM JAVA DISCUSSED IN OLD POSTS.

13th June 2013, 06:41 AM	#18
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, Very interesting gunong you have there. I cannot really tell from the photos for sure but the end of the tooth looks to be either worn or broken in an odd manner. Just to create more confusion could this possibly be a dugong tooth/tusk? Best, Robert

15th June 2013, 06:43 AM	#23
Bangkaya Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 38	The scabbard and the decorative motifs look Waray....

16th June 2013, 02:00 AM	#27
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	don't have one on hand, but a good way to see Waray motifs would be on some of the garabs...

17th June 2013, 07:03 AM	#29
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Bangkaya, you do have a good point of the flower not being in the middle of the scabbard of the typical Moro scabbard. I am with you with the gunong perhaps not being Moro, though I am still of the opinion that the piece may be later.