Question: Chinese spears

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

The same inside/outside division shows up in some old European texts, if I remember right. Basically, the front of your body (guts, groin, chest) is on the inside, and your back and butt are on the outside. Since with a spear, you are standing with one foot forward, this divides each side into left and right. I think the "circle" is meant metaphorically, rather than literally.

Hmm, that sounds like something my shigong has told me, in swordplay, that the front is the "tiger side" and the back is the "dragon side"... and in fist-fighting (or any melee combat) there's various advantages to taking the opponent's center-line (tiger-side/inside) or going to their outside and flanking them. Perhaps this is what they are referrign to like you said...

Originally Posted by fearn

I'd take their spear descriptions and illustrations with a small boulder of salt. The spears described are the equivalent of European pikes, but the pictures show a spear about two meters long. They're somewhat different weapons, so be careful.

I did notice that. Not sure why the artist would have depicted the spears so short when they were meant to be training with a spear about 10.6' in length.

Originally Posted by fearn

Another point is that the video with the translation should be watched carefully. In particular, pay attention to how often the demonstrator locks his elbow (bad idea), where the blade is (there's one point where he chops with the flat of the blade). Also note that his feet are reversed in the "end stance" (in bagua, you steal a step by bringing your back foot behind your front foot, because you can do so without moving your upper body. You can then lunge forward with some faint possibility of surprise), and ask whether he can generate any power with that bizarre back leg with the toe pointed back (the illustration could equally show someone with front toes forward, back toes out 90 degrees, or the classic fencing stance). The "jolt the legs" phrase is probably best interpreted as using your legs and back to power the spear, rather than using only your arm muscles. Spears are heavy, and legs are strong.

I am personally unsure about the translators videos. Like you've pointed out, some of his interpretation seems awkward, clumsy, or strange. It also seems very rigid, he can definitely demonstrate slowly without making it "blocky". But all the same, I am thankful someone is taking the time and effort to translate these old manuals.

[KuKulzA28]

Currently reading 長鎗法選 and deeply analyzing very single bit.
Will share my thoughts when I am all done. Going to test the principles and techniques described with a compliant partner. I got two long ash poles, each with it's "spearhead" of foam padding and tennis-ball core wrapped in duct tape. It should have approximately the same heft and balance of a legit spear... After we're comfortable we'll put on the sparring helmets and test it non-compliant.

So far I have concluded that "inner-circle" and "outer-circle" is a bad translation. It's more like "inside my circle" or "outside my circle"... and it's better described in "modern martial arts terms" as my inside/centerline area and outside/back/flank.




Anyone have art work or period photos of old Chinese spears and/or spearheads?
Or, better yet, pictures from your own collections?


EDIT:
This is a pretty good series from Hong Kong, in this video of Xing Yi Quan (no surprise) there's spear work. They use the same terminology as 長鎗法選.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clgG8HkJELw

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

So far I have concluded that "inner-circle" and "outer-circle" is a bad translation. It's more like "inside my circle" or "outside my circle"... and it's better described in "modern martial arts terms" as my inside/centerline area and outside/back/flank.

"Inside" and "outside" in modern unarmed martial arts are, in my experience, defined by inside or outside the lead hand. In the usual right-handed stance, with left leg and left hand forwards, to the left of my left hand is outside, to the right is inside. My arm being where it is, this corresponds to front of body/centreline being inside, back/flank being outside. It isn't the target area that matters; it's which side of the front arm the attacker comes in on.

Extending this to spear (as I did), it is which side of the spear which matters. Practically, there is little difference between aiming at the belly and aiming at the side if both attacks go in on the same side of the spear. "Inside my circle" and "outside my circle" sound OK as translations.

[KuKulzA28]

Yes I agree with your explanation, I was trying to say the same thing but apparently not well enough. The "inside circle" and "outside circle" translation confused me, but when I read the actual Chinese I realized it was just referring to the inside and outside as me and you have described. It's not written as one would speak normally but in a more literary style I suppose...

A few terms:

挐 - ná – to apprehend / take - palm down - Jack Chen translates this as parry
攔 - lán – to block / obstruct - Palm up - Jack Chen translates this as sweep
扎 - zhá – penetrate / pierce / thrust
提 - tí – lift / carry
纏 - chán – to wind / wrap
顛 - diān – to jolt (I wonder if this has to do with 迸)

Being mainly a kinesthetic learner, playing out the drills and sequences in the manual has helped me. It's actually a pretty succinct and well made manual. It explains the 八槍母 (Eight Spear Mother) - 8 movements which all spear techniques are essentially derived from. Then it describes the 六合原論併註 (Six Unifications Original Theory Combination Annotation). 六合 is also often translated as Six Harmonies. These 6 sequences build on one another, introducing a new type of tactic in each. The 原論 Original Theory is an interesting section with advice on situational things. Then there is 散劄拔萃 which Jack Chen translates as Spear Combat Drills.. it's not quite that, but whatever. The manual goes on to explain the various techniques named (often poetically as they often are) in the 六合 section. The a discussion on the construction of the long spear, and lastly in-depth description of the uses and executions of various stances. In summary, it goes over what these Henan folks consider to be the essentials of good long-spear combat.

I'll be comparing this to the E'mei spear which is also on Jack Chen's website. I've skimmed it and it seems to emphasize slightly different things, but both pretty straight forward.

I think it bears remembering that the 長鎗法選 (long spear manual) is from Henan area, and the Henan, Hebei, and Shandong provinces were the birthplaces of many of the well-known and respected martial art styles. It seems Henan-Hubei-Shandong, and Guangdong-Fujian, were really significant regions of Chinese melee fighting development. Just to emphasize my point, you have Mantis, Eagle claw, Taiji, BaGua, Xing Yi, Baji, etc. all coming from the North in those 3 provinces. Bak Mei, Hung Gar, White Crane, Southern Mantis, Dog, Li, Choy Gar, Choy Li Fut, and Wing Chun all come mainly from the southern region. It doesn't surprise me one bit to see such a stream-lined, K.I.S.S. manual on the long-spear coming from Henan, where there was much combat but also inter-influences(?)/cross-pollination of martial tactics and methods... because while martial arts were often a closely guarded skill, skilled martial artists often gain more from cross-training and adopting superior techniques and realizing principles than trying to kill one another off...

[fearn]

With regard to Na and Lan: are we talking about something like palm up and palm down on the lead hand on the spear? I know in bagua that some teachers make a big deal out of yin to yang (palm down to palm up) and yang to yin (palm up to palm down) changes as part of generating power.

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

With regard to Na and Lan: are we talking about something like palm up and palm down on the lead hand on the spear? I know in bagua that some teachers make a big deal out of yin to yang (palm down to palm up) and yang to yin (palm up to palm down) changes as part of generating power.

F

Yes! Exactly.

Na is palm down, and Lan is palm up. For the spear, if you have your left hand forward, your spear would lan or na, left or right, to block incoming stabs as guided by your left hand.

Lan is also used to mean blocking in some Chinese swordplay.

I have little knowledge of Bagua itself so I can't really comment on it, though the yin-yang balance and duality is heavily emphasized throughout Chinese culture.

[KuKulzA28]

I've been experimenting with oak, ash, and waxwood.
Tapering by hand gets tedious, but I guess compared to carving knife handles, clubs, and making bowing, it's not so bad
Oak seems too brittle, but the 8' tapered oak stave at 5 lbs is good for strength and form training.

Question:
Does anyone have genuine antique Chinese spears (intact) and can tell me how far the point of balance deviates from the center?

I want to get it as authentic as possible.