Islamic Crossbow?

[fernando]

Just look what i came across with:

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma25.htm

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma26.htm

It's a pitty, there's something wrong with the attachment uploader ... these pictures are great.

[fernando]

There you are

[Aqtai]

Nice pics Fernando.

The arabesque decoration is a bit "neutral" though, i.e. it doesn't look specifically Islamic. Do you have any more info about this fine weapon?

[Marc]

It's the Nasrid crossbow from the Archaeological Museum of Granada. Allegedly 14th - 15th c. At near 80 cm. long and 124 cm. wide, it's quite impressive, I must say...

[fernando]

If i remember well, B.I. is more interested in a determined model from a determined period, preferrably with pictures.
If the question were how soon in time did Muslims use crossbows, or how soon in time did Musliums make crossbows ( which is a different thing for the matter ), various apparently solid sources could be considered.
You have the Southern Italy Saracens, whom were not fond of the crossbow use, although their artisans used to produce them for Christian Forces:
http://www.deremilitari.org/resource...en_archers.htm
but you also have strong traces of Muslims using Crossbow versions against Christians, namely in the Reconquest period. I will try and attach herev the scanning of part of a letter, written in Latin, by an eye witness of the Conquest of Lisbon in 1147, where the Moors were already equiped with crossbows.
I keep searching the track of the so called moorish "Cuçalarab", a light crossbow from the Reconquest period, so eficient that the Christians have copied it for their own use.
Kind regards

[fernando]

Uploaders still not cooperating ... please see next posting

[fernando]

[B.I]

hi,
the nasrid crossbow is the only known example, and as marc says, it is only assumed as such, hence this post. the one in a private collection that is being researched owes its form and islamic heritage to the comparison of the nasrid piece. it is a great thing, but this question has never been directly followed through.
fernando, the last two pieces of informatipon are both great, and although neither proves that the crossbow was made and used by islamic warrior, without being directly influenced by the european version, it definately can class as ammunition that it was in use by the muslim armies.
both a great find.
i shall meet up with the researcher, and try and get the information he already has, to add to this posting, and will given in these last few pieces.
again, great work.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi,

Have a look at the illustration in Islamic Arms and Armour, edited by Robert Elgood. I know you have it, as you have shown the silver bottle on page 168. Have a look on page 31, the right side of the picture, I think I see one, maybe two crossbows – or should I put my 'glass eyes' on?

Eight to ninth century, would that be early enough?

[fernando]

Hi B.I. and all involved.
At this point we may assume the principle of the egg and the hen ... who knows which came first.
In an ultimate perrogative, we may consider that, even if we demonstrate that a determined islamic army appeared in such battle, siege, or campaign with crossbow equipment, it doesn't mean that they have produced them themselves. Or if they had, it doesn't mean they produced them with their own pattern. Or if they had, it doesn't mean their pattern was not inspired by previous christian models.
Besides the fact that not all islamized peoples were of the same origin, or leaved in same the region in the same period, nor they had the same weaponry options.
Also an old empirical saying pretends that you can never be sure that something is invented, but either reinvented, only not "publicised" or brought to practice before. Da Vincy invented the pointed bullit and the helycopter a few centuries before it was (re) invented and brought to practice. Luckily in this case we have its drawings.
In the available hipothesis, the crossbow was brought to practice by the chinese ( we ignore if the crossbow principle was discovered before ).
Then after that, whom copied whom, its something rather complex, indeed. There are muslims of many races, and christians all the same. There were bans on the crossbows made by Mohamad to muslims, but also by the Pope, made to christians. In both cases, a part of them ( not necessarily all ) ignored the ban.
It is a fact that muslims in all had a significantly lower atraction for the use ( not manufacturing ) of this weapon.
But let it be no doubt they either produced it, used it in action, and also developed their own models.Actually their intelectuals have written treatises on the subject, already in XII century.
The Arab Murdâ ben Ali (1137-1193) treatise, has largely described sofisticated crossbow variations.
Murthi ibn Ali Al Tarsusi wrote a treatise for Saladin, called "Tabsiratu Arbab Al-Albab", including descriptions and sketches of crossbow developments.
Naturally theses works were published in modern languages, surely in english. But i can trace a description of the Tarsusi drawings in a known Forum ... however the pictures are deleted, the thread is from last year:
'A crossbow used for launching naptha jars/pots'
'A circular ballista which can hold up to 4 bolts. When one is shot, the dial on the top of the wooden base turns to fire the other'
'A cavalry lance with a crossbow attached to it'
'another lance with a crossbow'
'Diagram of a buckler with a crossbow attached on the inner side of it. The bolt can be discharged with a simple lever, that will launch the bolt through a small hole in the steel sheild'
It is therefore acceptable that christians learned the crossbow use at fighting