Weighting in on Handle Cross sections: Round vs Oval/ Rectangular

Nathaniel · 15th May 2013, 05:49 AM

Hey Guys,

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts. Something quite interesting to ponder. With Dha/Daab it's interesting because there is quite a range in blade shapes from quite straight to more heavily curved. I was thinking that in some ways maybe that with curved blade the centripetal force would help to naturally orient the blade??? This would not help explain things with a more straight blade. Perhaps it just a matter of what you get use to...and with practice you learn to control edge orientation? Or perhaps given the fact that most of the armies composed of conscribed men of the city state who wore little to no armour this was not as big of an issue as it might be otherwise? Aside from swords, we've mentioned polearms and I can think of the Mak, which blade orientation would seem to be important but also has a round shaft...perhaps with the weight of the blade off center from the shaft this also acts similar to the curved sword blade in the the centripetal force helps to orient the blade?

Timo Nieminen · 15th May 2013, 07:52 AM

It's not the centripetal force, but just where a straight line through the grip, perpendicular to the motion, lies in relation to (a) the centre of mass of the weapon, and (b) the point of contact with the target.

(a) If the line through the grip is forward of the centre of mass, then starting a swing will tend to align the weapon properly. No need to worry about it twisting in your grasp.

(b) If the line through the grip is forward of the point of contact, then the weapon will tend to stay aligned after contact. This is the same reason why bicycle stability depends on "trail", and why trailers are stable when towed, but unstable when pushed.

In the picture, a straight sword chopping is a little unstable, for alignment, since it strikes a little forward of the line. A straight sword used to draw cut, where the grip leads in the cut, and a curved sword, have the point of contact (yellow circles) behind the line, and will be more stable.

David R · 24th May 2013, 08:24 PM

In the Mary Rose Museum, and in a collection in Edinburgh ( I think in the Castle) they have original hafts for Bills and Jedburgh Axes, and they are branch wood. Natural, cut branch of round section, with discernable shoots cut flush to the stave. Probably favoured 'cos of the continuous grain and natural spring.
Many of the shafts in Museums are 19th and early 20thC replacements, and so can not be used as exemplars.
Yari shafts are round, but Naginata's are oval...
Just my two pennyworth!

KuKulzA28 · 25th May 2013, 03:31 PM

This discussion makes me wonder...

in the case of Chinese sabers/dao, why handles shifted from straight and carved handles, many of rectangular cross-section... to rounder/oval handles especially on Ox-tail dao? I understand yanmaodao and liuyedao were more popular until the Qing when niuweidao become popular, and I have never seen an example of niuwei/oxtail with a rectangular handle...

ariel · 25th May 2013, 09:08 PM

IMHO, and based on the well-documented analysis of Caucasian sabers and kindjals, the greatest advantage of the oval vs, round handle was the stability of the former. The oval ones did not turn in the ( sweaty) hand with strong chopping/cutting hits. Also, the uniformity of the "round" handle did not allow for a stably- precise grip: as a result, the cut might have been executed not with the edge, but slightly off, with devastating results for the owner.
Hope I explained it well :-(

VANDOO · 25th May 2013, 10:11 PM

THE HAND BEING A REMARKABLE APPENDAGE CAN DEAL WITH A LOT OF CHANGE AND ADJUSTMENT QUICKLY. THE MIND OF A TRAINED FIGHTER CAN ADJUST QUICKLY TOO SO A FIGHTER TRAINED WITH EVEN A TRIANGULAR GRIP WOULD NO DOUBT LEARN ITS STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESS AND TO USE IT WELL. THE IDEAL GRIP IS ONE THAT WILL ALLOW A FIRM SECURE GRIP AND NOT WEAR ON (BLISTERS) OR OVERLY STRAIN THE HAND DURING REPETED USE.
I PERSONALLY PREFER A ROUND SHAFT ON A THRUSTING OR THROWING SPEAR BUT FIND THE OVAL BETTER ON SOMETHING USED AS THE JAPANESE NAGINATA IS.
FOR SLASHING SWORDS I PREFER A OVAL GRIP ESPECIALLY IF USING A ONE HANDED GRIP. WEAPONS NEED TO BE COMFORTABLE AND WELL BALANCED IN THE HAND. THEN WITH PRACTICE THE MIND, EYES AND HAND WILL AUTOMATICALLY TAKE CARE OF BLADE ALIGNMENT IN MOST CASES.
FUNCTION DETERMINES WHICH SHAPE SERVES BEST A ROUND HANDLE ON A RAPIER OR FENCING SWORD WILL SERVE WELL ENOUGH FOR THE THRUSTING AND QUICK PARRYS. BUT ON A BROADSWORD OR KATANA I THINK THE OVAL GRIP SERVES MUCH BETTER FOR STRONG SWEEPING STROKES. THIS DOSEN'T ANSWER QUESTIONS OR COVER NEW CONCEPTS BUT IS MY VIEW.

15th May 2013, 07:52 AM	#2
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	It's not the centripetal force, but just where a straight line through the grip, perpendicular to the motion, lies in relation to (a) the centre of mass of the weapon, and (b) the point of contact with the target. (a) If the line through the grip is forward of the centre of mass, then starting a swing will tend to align the weapon properly. No need to worry about it twisting in your grasp. (b) If the line through the grip is forward of the point of contact, then the weapon will tend to stay aligned after contact. This is the same reason why bicycle stability depends on "trail", and why trailers are stable when towed, but unstable when pushed. In the picture, a straight sword chopping is a little unstable, for alignment, since it strikes a little forward of the line. A straight sword used to draw cut, where the grip leads in the cut, and a curved sword, have the point of contact (yellow circles) behind the line, and will be more stable. Attached Images

15th May 2013, 05:49 AM	#1
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Hey Guys, Thanks for sharing all your thoughts. Something quite interesting to ponder. With Dha/Daab it's interesting because there is quite a range in blade shapes from quite straight to more heavily curved. I was thinking that in some ways maybe that with curved blade the centripetal force would help to naturally orient the blade??? This would not help explain things with a more straight blade. Perhaps it just a matter of what you get use to...and with practice you learn to control edge orientation? Or perhaps given the fact that most of the armies composed of conscribed men of the city state who wore little to no armour this was not as big of an issue as it might be otherwise? Aside from swords, we've mentioned polearms and I can think of the Mak, which blade orientation would seem to be important but also has a round shaft...perhaps with the weight of the blade off center from the shaft this also acts similar to the curved sword blade in the the centripetal force helps to orient the blade?

24th May 2013, 08:24 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	In the Mary Rose Museum, and in a collection in Edinburgh ( I think in the Castle) they have original hafts for Bills and Jedburgh Axes, and they are branch wood. Natural, cut branch of round section, with discernable shoots cut flush to the stave. Probably favoured 'cos of the continuous grain and natural spring. Many of the shafts in Museums are 19th and early 20thC replacements, and so can not be used as exemplars. Yari shafts are round, but Naginata's are oval... Just my two pennyworth!

25th May 2013, 03:31 PM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	This discussion makes me wonder... in the case of Chinese sabers/dao, why handles shifted from straight and carved handles, many of rectangular cross-section... to rounder/oval handles especially on Ox-tail dao? I understand yanmaodao and liuyedao were more popular until the Qing when niuweidao become popular, and I have never seen an example of niuwei/oxtail with a rectangular handle...

25th May 2013, 09:08 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	IMHO, and based on the well-documented analysis of Caucasian sabers and kindjals, the greatest advantage of the oval vs, round handle was the stability of the former. The oval ones did not turn in the ( sweaty) hand with strong chopping/cutting hits. Also, the uniformity of the "round" handle did not allow for a stably- precise grip: as a result, the cut might have been executed not with the edge, but slightly off, with devastating results for the owner. Hope I explained it well :-(

25th May 2013, 10:11 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE HAND BEING A REMARKABLE APPENDAGE CAN DEAL WITH A LOT OF CHANGE AND ADJUSTMENT QUICKLY. THE MIND OF A TRAINED FIGHTER CAN ADJUST QUICKLY TOO SO A FIGHTER TRAINED WITH EVEN A TRIANGULAR GRIP WOULD NO DOUBT LEARN ITS STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESS AND TO USE IT WELL. THE IDEAL GRIP IS ONE THAT WILL ALLOW A FIRM SECURE GRIP AND NOT WEAR ON (BLISTERS) OR OVERLY STRAIN THE HAND DURING REPETED USE. I PERSONALLY PREFER A ROUND SHAFT ON A THRUSTING OR THROWING SPEAR BUT FIND THE OVAL BETTER ON SOMETHING USED AS THE JAPANESE NAGINATA IS. FOR SLASHING SWORDS I PREFER A OVAL GRIP ESPECIALLY IF USING A ONE HANDED GRIP. WEAPONS NEED TO BE COMFORTABLE AND WELL BALANCED IN THE HAND. THEN WITH PRACTICE THE MIND, EYES AND HAND WILL AUTOMATICALLY TAKE CARE OF BLADE ALIGNMENT IN MOST CASES. FUNCTION DETERMINES WHICH SHAPE SERVES BEST A ROUND HANDLE ON A RAPIER OR FENCING SWORD WILL SERVE WELL ENOUGH FOR THE THRUSTING AND QUICK PARRYS. BUT ON A BROADSWORD OR KATANA I THINK THE OVAL GRIP SERVES MUCH BETTER FOR STRONG SWEEPING STROKES. THIS DOSEN'T ANSWER QUESTIONS OR COVER NEW CONCEPTS BUT IS MY VIEW.