Correctly Identifying a Borneo Sword

VVV · 20th April 2013, 08:15 PM

Yes Charles, you got it (a tilang kamarau, as described in Baltimore)

I would place it as from South Sarawak and the hilt might be later than the blade.
Maybe you should be a bit careful on using Shelford's date of 1902 as anything else than an indication on when he first saw a TK...

Michael

CharlesS · 20th April 2013, 08:25 PM

Thanks Michael! What features of the pierced hilt suggest that it is later than the blade?? It has a very nice patina.

Regarding the date, are you suggesting the type/style could be earlier, just unknown to him until then??

VVV · 21st April 2013, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Thanks Michael! What features of the pierced hilt suggest that it is later than the blade?? It has a very nice patina.

Regarding the date, are you suggesting the type/style could be earlier, just unknown to him until then??

I just have the impression, based on the motifs and how deep they are carved, that this style of hilt is later.
It is always hard to judge age from pictures so I go more on the choice of motifs and the workmanship.
But if it has more patina than what it looks like on your pictures I might be wrong in this case.

On the date, I am a bit skeptic on Shelford stating a certain year without mentioning what he bases his statement on.
So if 1902 was the first year that Shelford saw them they might be a bit older.
But not as old as the parang niabur and even the langgai tinggang, of course.

Michael

Maurice · 21st April 2013, 09:49 AM

A Very Nice TK Charles!
I would classify this as a Tilang Kemarau also, based on Banks.
But if I was really an expert, I could tell you exactly the differences on all aspects between a "Tilang Kemarau" and a "Suai".
As I do have some ideas about it, I'm not sure about them!
But maybe nobody can tell the exact differences between those two, so we're only driven students of the few in the "top level"?

The blade looks very nice! I myself have the feeling that the blade is the oldest on the TK. It looks to me that the handle and the scabbard could be later and might be from the same date.
Michael described the hypothetis on the handle allready, which I agree upon.
I think the scabbard looks too perfect, and this in combination with the patina made me have this assumption of being also later.
Could we have a close-up of the carvings on the scabbard?

Maurice

Maurice · 21st April 2013, 10:20 AM

PS. I also realise that I have to be very carefull with my statements.
So I want to emphasize that it's sometimes very hard.
Though I stick to my earlier post, it's not a matter of course!
Also old pieces can have shallow carvings in the handle.
And also very old pieces can be in a too perfect state and with no or little patina when it's collected very early and since than stored at some attic or closet.

I have one with somewhat similar features considering the state and patina. Though the carvings are not very deep (besides of the big curls and the carving on top of the handle which comes out of the handle 3dimensional), the patina isn't that great one should suspect, but it is an old style handle.
PS. It's ex-Paul Vermeire and later ex-Coppens (though not depicted in the Coppens book).

I would love to see the carvings on your scabbard closely Charles!

Maurice

VVV · 21st April 2013, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

snip
But if I was really an expert, I could tell you exactly the differences on all aspects between a "Tilang Kemarau" and a "Suai".
As I do have some ideas about it, I'm not sure about them!
But maybe nobody can tell the exact differences between those two, so we're only driven students of the few in the "top level"?

snip
Maurice

Yes, let us avoid the term Suai until we have more criteria than just one uncommented picture.
The same with some other, more regional, Iban terms for the same category of a parang...

Michael

PS Suai is an Iban village so I suspect that the label is geographic, instead of being another category of parang.

CharlesS · 21st April 2013, 03:15 PM

Maurice,

Here are some additional pics of the carving. Let us know what you learn from them.

Maurice · 21st April 2013, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Maurice,

Here are some additional pics of the carving. Let us know what you learn from them.

Thank you Charles for the close ups.

I have the feeling the handle and scabbard are from the same age.
There are a lot of similarities to be found, and they look like they belong together.
As the leeches and other motifs (circles etc.) are not uncommon on handles and scabbards of that area, the combination of some of them on the handle and on the scabbard are a good match.
For instance the little "impellers" (marked with a red square in image 1) on the handle we can also see in the scabbard.
And there are other marks which I also marked with different colours.
I hope you're not color-blind

Maurice

Maurice · 23rd April 2013, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

PS Suai is an Iban village so I suspect that the label is geographic, instead of being another category of parang.

Just noticed your note!
So probably a TK found in Suai.... Could be an explanation...

maurice

T. Koch · 29th September 2013, 01:53 PM

Hi guys,

I'm doing a bump here, because I've recently stumbled across swords of this type and this thread is the first place that i hear the term tilang kamaru. Could any of you please post the 'Banks' and 'Baltimore' references in their full? I'd love to read them!

- thanks in advance!

All the best, - Thor

21st April 2013, 09:49 AM	#4
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	A Very Nice TK Charles! I would classify this as a Tilang Kemarau also, based on Banks. But if I was really an expert, I could tell you exactly the differences on all aspects between a "Tilang Kemarau" and a "Suai". As I do have some ideas about it, I'm not sure about them! But maybe nobody can tell the exact differences between those two, so we're only driven students of the few in the "top level"? The blade looks very nice! I myself have the feeling that the blade is the oldest on the TK. It looks to me that the handle and the scabbard could be later and might be from the same date. Michael described the hypothetis on the handle allready, which I agree upon. I think the scabbard looks too perfect, and this in combination with the patina made me have this assumption of being also later. Could we have a close-up of the carvings on the scabbard? Maurice Last edited by Maurice; 21st April 2013 at 10:35 AM.

21st April 2013, 10:20 AM	#5
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	PS. I also realise that I have to be very carefull with my statements. So I want to emphasize that it's sometimes very hard. Though I stick to my earlier post, it's not a matter of course! Also old pieces can have shallow carvings in the handle. And also very old pieces can be in a too perfect state and with no or little patina when it's collected very early and since than stored at some attic or closet. I have one with somewhat similar features considering the state and patina. Though the carvings are not very deep (besides of the big curls and the carving on top of the handle which comes out of the handle 3dimensional), the patina isn't that great one should suspect, but it is an old style handle. PS. It's ex-Paul Vermeire and later ex-Coppens (though not depicted in the Coppens book). I would love to see the carvings on your scabbard closely Charles! Maurice Attached Images Last edited by Maurice; 21st April 2013 at 10:36 AM.

21st April 2013, 03:15 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Maurice, Here are some additional pics of the carving. Let us know what you learn from them. Attached Images

20th April 2013, 08:15 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes Charles, you got it (a tilang kamarau, as described in Baltimore) I would place it as from South Sarawak and the hilt might be later than the blade. Maybe you should be a bit careful on using Shelford's date of 1902 as anything else than an indication on when he first saw a TK... Michael

20th April 2013, 08:25 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks Michael! What features of the pierced hilt suggest that it is later than the blade?? It has a very nice patina. Regarding the date, are you suggesting the type/style could be earlier, just unknown to him until then??

29th September 2013, 01:53 PM	#10
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi guys, I'm doing a bump here, because I've recently stumbled across swords of this type and this thread is the first place that i hear the term tilang kamaru. Could any of you please post the 'Banks' and 'Baltimore' references in their full? I'd love to read them! - thanks in advance! All the best, - Thor