Cannon balls

fernando · 18th April 2013, 09:45 PM

Stone ball cannons had the chamber narrower than the bore.
Apparently this artillery system disappeared during the 17th century.

Andi · 13th September 2013, 09:00 PM

wrong thread - Sorry

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=160459&posted=1#post160459

Please delete this post

M ELEY · 14th September 2013, 06:59 AM

I must have missed this one from awhile back. Fascinating information on the construction of those early naval cannon balls. Who would have thought? Archeaology is so important to the world of weapons collecting, as it sheds light on many of the unknown lost facts. I'm currently reading a spectacular book on shipwrecks off the Scottish coast and the underwater archeaological work being done on them. Among other interesting tidbits- many of the Spanish and Portuguese guns of the 16th century had extremely crooked bores, resulting in them being prone to explode in battle. The problems had been hinted at in old texts, but it took one of these wrecks to supply direct proof. Another interesting find was an English war ship whose bow was wrapped in tarred horse hide; an experimental method to deter the dreaded terido marine worm (It didn't stop the little buggers!). Anyway, thanks to Andi for posting this great link.

adrian · 15th September 2013, 10:40 AM

Stone ball cannons had the chamber narrower than the bore.
Apparently this artillery system disappeared during the 17th century.

Interestingly this system, with a smaller diameter powder chamber, persisted well into the 19th century & was used with shell firing ordnance such as mortars, howitsers & some shell guns etc.

Regarding stone cannon balls, the Royal Armouries experimented with some stone shot from Mary Rose & demonstrated its ability to easily penetrate great thicknesses of timber representing the side of a ship, when recovered the shot was still mostly intact. So the use of lead covered iron shot is rather curious, I think that less wear to the bore than with iron alone was a definite benefit, many of the larger natures of ordnance on Mary Rose were bronze and iron shot would scour this badly, & I would surmise that the intent was to provide for a limited supply of heavier weight of shot than the stone shot.
Much later iron shot were of course used in bronze guns, but with a wood bottom strapped on (later rivetted on) to minimise bore damage.
Adrian

fernando · 15th September 2013, 05:05 PM

Glad to have you around, Adrain

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrian

Stone ball cannons had the chamber narrower than the bore.
Apparently this artillery system disappeared during the 17th century.

Interestingly this system, with a smaller diameter powder chamber, persisted well into the 19th century & was used with shell firing ordnance such as mortars, howitsers & some shell guns etc...

Perhaps my approach was not a fortunate one. I was correlating the system of stone ball artillery along with wider chamber diameter. I could refer to stone ball artillery period ending, but would not mention the longevity the chamber wider than bore alone.
There is this work covering an historical artillery exhibition in the Oporto Military Museum, where the author brings about this chamber system which, around here, is called encamarado (enchambered, in a free translation) or releixo (relax), applied in cannons used on board artillery or siege operations, seeking to obtain the ammunition (pelouro) shatering, in order to cause (more) casualties. In this exhibition a XV century gross bombard, possibly Portuguese, was present with a caliber of 85 stone arratles (circa 40 Kgs = 33,5 cms. diameter), loading 25 arratles black powder, with a (useful) reach of 400 to 500 metres, with a +5º elevation.
Concerning the bore damage caused by stone balls, the Portuguese had the option to melt and recast their cannons every hundred shots, so possible as they had established fundries in Goa, Cochim, Malaca and Macau (Rainer Daehnhardt).

fernando · 15th September 2013, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Among other interesting tidbits- many of the Spanish and Portuguese guns of the 16th century had extremely crooked bores, resulting in them being prone to explode in battle ...

Oh Mark, let me be skeptical about that theory ... at least on what touches Portuguese artillery, the dame i can defend. From what i read and hear, the unanimous opinion is that their cannons were extremely advanced and a major ( if not the major) reason for their success.
There ought to be a context for that assumption

.

fernando · 16th September 2013, 06:11 PM

Stone balls pictured last week at the Navy Museum situated in Torre Del Oro, Seville, Spain.
Amazingly these things could often be rather assymetrical.
I have seen much worse, by the way.

.

M ELEY · 17th September 2013, 11:38 PM

Sorry, Fernando. I reread the article and it was a Spanish vessel, the El Gran Grifon, that wrecked off Stroms Hellier, Scotland, in 1588. The vast majority of the guns from that wreck (and, according to the article, the time period), the guns had been bored very poorly, with many that would have exploded if they had been used. They were bronze guns from Lisbon and were a small batch, apparently an experimental program to speed up production and cut costs. The chief gunfounder was an Italian named Bartolome de Somorriva, who came under serious criticism. In the years to come, the problem was addressed, but for this particular wrecked ship, the inspectors had looked the other way on her poor guns. Ironically, it was bad weather and a reef that claimed the ship, not a battle.

fernando · 19th September 2013, 04:49 PM

So El Gran Grifon wrecked when returning from the Gravelines battle. She belonged to the Invincible Armada fleet … some call it convoy, once the Spanish idea was not battling on sea but invade Britain with a powerful army; only 22 were war galleons, the rest 108 being merchant ships full of infantry for the assault.
Noteworthy is that, by the time these events occurred (1588), Portugal glorious days, on what touches naval might, were starting to weaken; the Filipes from Spain had taken control of the country on 1580 (till 1640) .
One of the first things the Spaniards did after taking over, a classic move, was to demilitarize Portugal, namely dismantling some arsenals, and taking command of others. It is written that 1000 cannons of the finest gunnery were remitted to Spain, as also several ships, which ended up being used to strenghten the said Invincible Armada. The personnel embarked in those ships were Portuguese, although the command was Spanish.
Naturally during this period, operational problems arose, as Portuguese (like any other would) did not feel comfortable working and fighting under foreign command.
So under the pressure put by Spanish to organize for extra gunnery production on an urgent basis and under unwilling ambience in the Portuguese foundries, aggravated by lack of qualified supervision, i wouldn’t be surprised that fresh material coming out of the foundries was eventually “second choice”.
Adding to this problematic, Somorriva was a notorious untrustworthy gun-founder.
I would then consider such bunches of crooked guns as a punctual war episode and not a standard procedure.
… As obviously i would admit any scholar would turn my story upside down but, as you know, one must say something to defend his club

.

18th April 2013, 09:45 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let's also not forget that ... Stone ball cannons had the chamber narrower than the bore. Apparently this artillery system disappeared during the 17th century.

13th September 2013, 09:00 PM	#2
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	wrong thread - Sorry http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=160459&posted=1#post160459 Please delete this post Attached Images

16th September 2013, 06:11 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Speaking of stone balls Stone balls pictured last week at the Navy Museum situated in Torre Del Oro, Seville, Spain. Amazingly these things could often be rather assymetrical. I have seen much worse, by the way. . Attached Images

14th September 2013, 06:59 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	I must have missed this one from awhile back. Fascinating information on the construction of those early naval cannon balls. Who would have thought? Archeaology is so important to the world of weapons collecting, as it sheds light on many of the unknown lost facts. I'm currently reading a spectacular book on shipwrecks off the Scottish coast and the underwater archeaological work being done on them. Among other interesting tidbits- many of the Spanish and Portuguese guns of the 16th century had extremely crooked bores, resulting in them being prone to explode in battle. The problems had been hinted at in old texts, but it took one of these wrecks to supply direct proof. Another interesting find was an English war ship whose bow was wrapped in tarred horse hide; an experimental method to deter the dreaded terido marine worm (It didn't stop the little buggers!). Anyway, thanks to Andi for posting this great link.

15th September 2013, 10:40 AM	#4
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 133	Stone ball cannons had the chamber narrower than the bore. Apparently this artillery system disappeared during the 17th century. Interestingly this system, with a smaller diameter powder chamber, persisted well into the 19th century & was used with shell firing ordnance such as mortars, howitsers & some shell guns etc. Regarding stone cannon balls, the Royal Armouries experimented with some stone shot from Mary Rose & demonstrated its ability to easily penetrate great thicknesses of timber representing the side of a ship, when recovered the shot was still mostly intact. So the use of lead covered iron shot is rather curious, I think that less wear to the bore than with iron alone was a definite benefit, many of the larger natures of ordnance on Mary Rose were bronze and iron shot would scour this badly, & I would surmise that the intent was to provide for a limited supply of heavier weight of shot than the stone shot. Much later iron shot were of course used in bronze guns, but with a wood bottom strapped on (later rivetted on) to minimise bore damage. Adrian

17th September 2013, 11:38 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Sorry, Fernando. I reread the article and it was a Spanish vessel, the El Gran Grifon, that wrecked off Stroms Hellier, Scotland, in 1588. The vast majority of the guns from that wreck (and, according to the article, the time period), the guns had been bored very poorly, with many that would have exploded if they had been used. They were bronze guns from Lisbon and were a small batch, apparently an experimental program to speed up production and cut costs. The chief gunfounder was an Italian named Bartolome de Somorriva, who came under serious criticism. In the years to come, the problem was addressed, but for this particular wrecked ship, the inspectors had looked the other way on her poor guns. Ironically, it was bad weather and a reef that claimed the ship, not a battle.

19th September 2013, 04:49 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So El Gran Grifon wrecked when returning from the Gravelines battle. She belonged to the Invincible Armada fleet … some call it convoy, once the Spanish idea was not battling on sea but invade Britain with a powerful army; only 22 were war galleons, the rest 108 being merchant ships full of infantry for the assault. Noteworthy is that, by the time these events occurred (1588), Portugal glorious days, on what touches naval might, were starting to weaken; the Filipes from Spain had taken control of the country on 1580 (till 1640) . One of the first things the Spaniards did after taking over, a classic move, was to demilitarize Portugal, namely dismantling some arsenals, and taking command of others. It is written that 1000 cannons of the finest gunnery were remitted to Spain, as also several ships, which ended up being used to strenghten the said Invincible Armada. The personnel embarked in those ships were Portuguese, although the command was Spanish. Naturally during this period, operational problems arose, as Portuguese (like any other would) did not feel comfortable working and fighting under foreign command. So under the pressure put by Spanish to organize for extra gunnery production on an urgent basis and under unwilling ambience in the Portuguese foundries, aggravated by lack of qualified supervision, i wouldn’t be surprised that fresh material coming out of the foundries was eventually “second choice”. Adding to this problematic, Somorriva was a notorious untrustworthy gun-founder. I would then consider such bunches of crooked guns as a punctual war episode and not a standard procedure. … As obviously i would admit any scholar would turn my story upside down but, as you know, one must say something to defend his club .