Early signs of dhamentia

RhysMichael · 11th October 2005, 01:50 PM

I have to join with the others in saying what a great find that is. I have seen similar hilts but never have seen that tip style or makers mark either. Its a shame Dan is not still in Thailand to find out about the mark. I have seen several dha now with the longer handles with a more dramatic curve. Andrew is the evidence now that this is mostly Laotian ?

The only one I own that is similar is this one

Again congratulations on the find and beware dha are addictive. I am sure the surgeon general will soon require warning labels on them.

Andrew · 11th October 2005, 02:05 PM

Hi JT. I still favor Thai for Tim's example. Probably Ratankosin, according to Mark. A similar one appears as #4 in the second photo in this post about an Oldman Catalog:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...97&postcount=2

Mark · 11th October 2005, 05:18 PM

How did I miss this one? It is very nice, from what I can see.

I am going to go against the tide of opinion and say that it is Burman (as in the tribe after which Burma is named). The wide fuller and floral lotus pommel say Burma to me. Compare it to this one, which I am certain is Burman based on the presence of koftgari (plus the Burmese script is a dead give-away

).

I have seen the peg in a number of scabbards, so I think that it is a normal feature, but I don't think that I have seen it together with a chape. I think Andrew is right about age. Never seen the mark, either. It looks sort of like a flower with a stem ... or maybe a latanka? Are there two marks or one?

Tim Simmons · 11th October 2005, 05:59 PM

I take it I am in then, you will let me know the password or secret knock

. This is a drawing of the mark but it might not be a good strike, looking from the handle at the bottom of the drawing using a +10 loop. I do not know if it helps. I thank you all for the reassuring comments as although not a complete stab in the dark I was a little concerned that I had spent a touch more than usual. Tim

Andrew · 11th October 2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I am going to go against the tide of opinion and say that it is Burman (as in the tribe after which Burma is named). The wide fuller and floral lotus pommel say Burma to me. Compare it to this one, which I am certain is Burman based on the presence of koftgari (plus the Burmese script is a dead give-away

).

Hi Mark.

Notice I hedged my bets on the pommel?

Have we seen many Burman swords with handles of this length? I know this is not a "cast in stone" feature, but lotus-bud pommels do appear on Thai swords as well, and if the handle was shorter and three-sectioned like your example, you'd have complete agreement from me. Perhaps an example of cross-polination?

The struck marks at the forte are interesting. I suspect a smith's mark (no great guess).

Andrew

Tim Simmons · 11th October 2005, 09:47 PM

This is like one of those difficult viewings of Congo artifacts, where differences are detectable but who exactly, when in areas with cultural similarities has the dominant influence, especially when you consider what was Burma, Malay and Siam all share borders on the peninsula. Might one have to look at even smaller group affiliation such as clans which can be surprisingly dispersed? When I think about it there is less written about this area of weapons than Africa. Tim

Mark · 11th October 2005, 11:28 PM

I don't think I have seem such a long handle on a Burmese sword. Some funky Shan dha approach these proportions, but they have shorter blades, so the handle wouldn't be so long in absolute terms.

Its very possibly cross-pollination. You know how this stuff moves around! Nothing ever seems to be an absolute identifier.

Except I have convinced myself that koftgari on the blade is uniquely Burmese, at least on the older blades (I understand from Dan that someone up in northern Thailand seems to do it nowadays, since he sent his custom dha up there for decoration).

Thinking about the fuller. I haven't seen too many hatchet tipped dha myself. Not that they are especially rare -- I've just not had the opportunity. I have one, but it has no fuller. I had a concave-tipped one with a fuller that ran right through the "tip," though, very much like this one. I'm pretty sure that one was Burmese, but no idea from which tribe (the consensus is Kachin, though).

RhysMichael · 12th October 2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Thinking about the fuller. I haven't seen too many hatchet tipped dha myself. Not that they are especially rare -- I've just not had the opportunity. I have one, but it has no fuller. I had a concave-tipped one with a fuller that ran right through the "tip," though, very much like this one. I'm pretty sure that one was Burmese, but no idea from which tribe (the consensus is Kachin, though).

I have seen and handled some of the concave tip dha with the fuller going through the tip also. Most of you have seen these already.

11th October 2005, 05:18 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Dreck! How did I miss this one? It is very nice, from what I can see. I am going to go against the tide of opinion and say that it is Burman (as in the tribe after which Burma is named). The wide fuller and floral lotus pommel say Burma to me. Compare it to this one, which I am certain is Burman based on the presence of koftgari (plus the Burmese script is a dead give-away ). I have seen the peg in a number of scabbards, so I think that it is a normal feature, but I don't think that I have seen it together with a chape. I think Andrew is right about age. Never seen the mark, either. It looks sort of like a flower with a stem ... or maybe a latanka? Are there two marks or one?

11th October 2005, 01:50 PM	#1
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I have to join with the others in saying what a great find that is. I have seen similar hilts but never have seen that tip style or makers mark either. Its a shame Dan is not still in Thailand to find out about the mark. I have seen several dha now with the longer handles with a more dramatic curve. Andrew is the evidence now that this is mostly Laotian ? The only one I own that is similar is this one Again congratulations on the find and beware dha are addictive. I am sure the surgeon general will soon require warning labels on them.

11th October 2005, 02:05 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi JT. I still favor Thai for Tim's example. Probably Ratankosin, according to Mark. A similar one appears as #4 in the second photo in this post about an Oldman Catalog: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...97&postcount=2

11th October 2005, 05:59 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I take it I am in then, you will let me know the password or secret knock . This is a drawing of the mark but it might not be a good strike, looking from the handle at the bottom of the drawing using a +10 loop. I do not know if it helps. I thank you all for the reassuring comments as although not a complete stab in the dark I was a little concerned that I had spent a touch more than usual. Tim Attached Images

11th October 2005, 09:47 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	This is like one of those difficult viewings of Congo artifacts, where differences are detectable but who exactly, when in areas with cultural similarities has the dominant influence, especially when you consider what was Burma, Malay and Siam all share borders on the peninsula. Might one have to look at even smaller group affiliation such as clans which can be surprisingly dispersed? When I think about it there is less written about this area of weapons than Africa. Tim

11th October 2005, 11:28 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I don't think I have seem such a long handle on a Burmese sword. Some funky Shan dha approach these proportions, but they have shorter blades, so the handle wouldn't be so long in absolute terms. Its very possibly cross-pollination. You know how this stuff moves around! Nothing ever seems to be an absolute identifier. Except I have convinced myself that koftgari on the blade is uniquely Burmese, at least on the older blades (I understand from Dan that someone up in northern Thailand seems to do it nowadays, since he sent his custom dha up there for decoration). Thinking about the fuller. I haven't seen too many hatchet tipped dha myself. Not that they are especially rare -- I've just not had the opportunity. I have one, but it has no fuller. I had a concave-tipped one with a fuller that ran right through the "tip," though, very much like this one. I'm pretty sure that one was Burmese, but no idea from which tribe (the consensus is Kachin, though).