Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

Yannis · 1st January 2005, 11:54 AM

Excelent work Radu and I have to thank you, too, for it.

I have notice 2 points I need more clarification.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

like the Greek kopis, Thracian machaira or Dacian sica and others

I am not sure that we can call machaira Thracian because it was spread all over greek world. The word "machaira" is still alive in greek language (means "very big knife"). The word is also in New Testament. Etymological speaking, "knife" in modern greek is "machairi" and "battle" is "machi"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

and the boot hilt (photo 11) became standard and started being known as the “Hungarian-Polish style” saber

In the diagramm this very intresting boot hilt is in East side! I am curius about it, because recently I saw one in sword with typical Khevsur decoration!

Radu Transylvanicus · 2nd January 2005, 11:34 AM

Yannis, why do I have the same issue with all Greeks : hey, Radu did you knew that comes from the Greek word ,,so on and so on,, ...

dont take it personal but it becomes such a funny clichee when Greeks are negotiating the origins of everything ... it was even the theme of very succesful Hollywood movie two years ago : ,,My big fat Greek wedding,, ... but you have my promise nevertheless I will research (or try at least) the word ,,machaira,, ...

,,The boot hilt,, in the Caucasus or in Orient in general is something like our earliear ,, boomerang yataghan theory,, (am sure you remember that since it was so pro-Greek

) ... Eastearn Europe took influence from the western Asia but gave back a lot , believe it or not ...

Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...

Yannis · 3rd January 2005, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

...dont take it personal but it becomes such a funny clichee when Greeks are negotiating the origins of everything ... it was even the theme of very succesful Hollywood movie two years ago : ,,My big fat Greek wedding,, ... but you have my promise nevertheless I will research (or try at least) the word ,,machaira,, ...

My dear friend, I have seen the movie and it was big fun.

Etymology is a tool that help us to understand not only the origin of a word but sometimes the origin of an item. I didnt said "machaira" has greek origin, I just wonder if it is Thracian because it was widespread in ancient greek world. Also decent vocabularies dont have a certain etymology for the word "machaira". But it is still alive with almost the same meaning in greek language.

Sure, I dont take personal that some tenths thousands words of most european languages have greek origin. It was not my fault

But it was a great help in my studies

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

... ,,The boot hilt,, in the Caucasus or in Orient in general is something like our earliear ,, boomerang yataghan theory,, (am sure you remember that since it was so pro-Greek

) ... Eastearn Europe took influence from the western Asia but gave back a lot , believe it or not ...

Maybe in the case of this particular Khevsur sword it was more than mode. Maybe the same sword has Polish - Hungarian origin and found in the hands of Khevsur people who ornate it this way. Who knows...

ariel · 3rd January 2005, 04:28 PM

[ From Radu

Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...[/QUOTE]

Reply:That would be true if Estocs were used as true swords. In fact, they were used as sort of lances; those were aplenty in the Asian armamentarium.

Radu Transylvanicus · 3rd January 2005, 10:38 PM

Ariel any concrete examples of Asian lance-swords, perhaps hilted ( Indian bhuj or angkus or such dont count I think...)

TVV · 9th January 2005, 02:12 AM

Radu: I promised you a picture and here it is. It is a picture from a Byzantine manuscript depicting Bulgars slaying Christian soldiers, a few of them holding curved sabres. It dates to the seventh or eighth century. The earliest curved sabres in Eastern Europe, dating ba,ck to the 670s, are found in the burrials of nomads from Central Asia: Avars and Bulgars. I think there are also sinilar examples found at approximately the same time in Northern Caucasus that are associated with the Hazars. Since before coming to Eastern Europe all of these turkic tribes inhabited the steppes north of the Caucasus mountains, I guess this proves your main point about the lands of the origin of this weapon and the significance of Eastern Europe in its spread all over the continent. Only the date of the intorduction of the sabre is a little earlier, and the Magyars were not the first ones to carry it.
Regards,
Teodor

Radu Transylvanicus · 9th January 2005, 10:00 AM

Priyatel Teodor,

When is this iconoclastic painting dated again ?A bit too ,,fully matured,, orthodox style with very developed christianic characters for 500s a.C. , dont you think ? personal opinion ...
As far as the birth of the sword, I agree with an earliear date set than originally mentioned but if not backed by hard evidence remains just supposition, even though we both believe in just as much and were convinced it was the case... On the other hand, however, I am rather keen to lean towards an Alanic versus an Avaric transitional origin (debated and agreed this already with our ,,brother in arms,, Jim McD. , earliear...) .
Any pre-scimitars, perhaps of Turkic origin, you can think of in any museums that would predate the ones we know already as 9th century and were found on European teritory, including Ukraine or Turkey ?

Radu

TVV · 10th January 2005, 01:01 AM

Oh no, deffinitely not 500 AC, it is I believe from the late 8th century. There are miniatures from the middle of the 9th century in the Chronicle of Ioan Skilica, depicting the Byzantine emperor Leo V Armenian (813-820) with a sabre, of which I am unable to find a scan right now. It would be strange for an Eastern Roman Emperor to be depicted with a weapon that was just introduced by the enemies of his Empire.
I agree with the Alanic origin, since there are linguistic evidences that the word sabre originated from an Alanic root: "shab" meaning an edged weapon in thast language. The Magyars appeared in Eastern Europe in the beggining of the 900s, or early 10th century. Since there are examples from the 9th century from the Balkans and what is now Hungary, it is clear I believe that this weapon was introduced to these places by the Avars, Bulgars and the other Turkic tribes. It is highly unlikely that the Bulgars for example came up with the design of the sabre after moving to the Balkans, so it should have been with them at least since the 7th century. Whether the sabre appeared at about that time in the Eurasian Steppes or earlier, it is hard to say.
Best Regards, as always,
Teodor

9th January 2005, 02:12 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Radu: I promised you a picture and here it is. It is a picture from a Byzantine manuscript depicting Bulgars slaying Christian soldiers, a few of them holding curved sabres. It dates to the seventh or eighth century. The earliest curved sabres in Eastern Europe, dating ba,ck to the 670s, are found in the burrials of nomads from Central Asia: Avars and Bulgars. I think there are also sinilar examples found at approximately the same time in Northern Caucasus that are associated with the Hazars. Since before coming to Eastern Europe all of these turkic tribes inhabited the steppes north of the Caucasus mountains, I guess this proves your main point about the lands of the origin of this weapon and the significance of Eastern Europe in its spread all over the continent. Only the date of the intorduction of the sabre is a little earlier, and the Magyars were not the first ones to carry it. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

9th January 2005, 10:00 AM	#7
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Priyatel Teodor, When is this iconoclastic painting dated again ?A bit too ,,fully matured,, orthodox style with very developed christianic characters for 500s a.C. , dont you think ? personal opinion ... As far as the birth of the sword, I agree with an earliear date set than originally mentioned but if not backed by hard evidence remains just supposition, even though we both believe in just as much and were convinced it was the case... On the other hand, however, I am rather keen to lean towards an Alanic versus an Avaric transitional origin (debated and agreed this already with our ,,brother in arms,, Jim McD. , earliear...) . Any pre-scimitars, perhaps of Turkic origin, you can think of in any museums that would predate the ones we know already as 9th century and were found on European teritory, including Ukraine or Turkey ? Radu Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 9th January 2005 at 10:22 AM.

10th January 2005, 01:01 AM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Oh no, deffinitely not 500 AC, it is I believe from the late 8th century. There are miniatures from the middle of the 9th century in the Chronicle of Ioan Skilica, depicting the Byzantine emperor Leo V Armenian (813-820) with a sabre, of which I am unable to find a scan right now. It would be strange for an Eastern Roman Emperor to be depicted with a weapon that was just introduced by the enemies of his Empire. I agree with the Alanic origin, since there are linguistic evidences that the word sabre originated from an Alanic root: "shab" meaning an edged weapon in thast language. The Magyars appeared in Eastern Europe in the beggining of the 900s, or early 10th century. Since there are examples from the 9th century from the Balkans and what is now Hungary, it is clear I believe that this weapon was introduced to these places by the Avars, Bulgars and the other Turkic tribes. It is highly unlikely that the Bulgars for example came up with the design of the sabre after moving to the Balkans, so it should have been with them at least since the 7th century. Whether the sabre appeared at about that time in the Eurasian Steppes or earlier, it is hard to say. Best Regards, as always, Teodor Last edited by TVV; 10th January 2005 at 02:00 AM.

2nd January 2005, 11:34 AM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Yannis, why do I have the same issue with all Greeks : hey, Radu did you knew that comes from the Greek word ,,so on and so on,, ... dont take it personal but it becomes such a funny clichee when Greeks are negotiating the origins of everything ... it was even the theme of very succesful Hollywood movie two years ago : ,,My big fat Greek wedding,, ... but you have my promise nevertheless I will research (or try at least) the word ,,machaira,, ... ,,The boot hilt,, in the Caucasus or in Orient in general is something like our earliear ,, boomerang yataghan theory,, (am sure you remember that since it was so pro-Greek ) ... Eastearn Europe took influence from the western Asia but gave back a lot , believe it or not ... Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...

3rd January 2005, 04:28 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	[ From Radu Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...[/QUOTE] Reply:That would be true if Estocs were used as true swords. In fact, they were used as sort of lances; those were aplenty in the Asian armamentarium.

3rd January 2005, 10:38 PM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Ariel any concrete examples of Asian lance-swords, perhaps hilted ( Indian bhuj or angkus or such dont count I think...)