Manual del Baratero - A Review

Chris Evans · 5th October 2005, 03:03 AM

Hi Bill,

You got a good one there. That lock is what the Spaniards would describe as a `teat-lock', the teat being the little stub on the heel of the blade that engages with the hole in the spine spring. This type of lock was comparatively rare in Spain and much liked by the French and Italian cutlers who use them to this day. It provides great security and as you say, on some models, a very fast opening - For this reason the Spanish authorities did not like them nor did their cutlers because it required precision fitting by highly skilled labour, which was scarce in their country.

A near identical navaja is shown on plate 140 (pg 131) of Forton's "Antique Clasp Knives" and is described as probably made during the 19th century in French Rosellon (a border region near Catalunia). Depending on its overall state, it would fetch around $US500 on the open market and more if sold by a dealer.

Cheers
Chris

Bill · 5th October 2005, 03:42 AM

Thank You, Chris

Frank · 5th October 2005, 07:51 AM

Helo Robert

I agree completely with Chris. I am a senior black belt holder and have recived instruction in the knife and other common weapons. We use them as extensions of the body movments that we already mastered and back them up with our unarmed skills. This means that should somebody get past my knife they still have to face my kicks and other blows. But with all this knowledege I could not be sure to win aginst another knife in a fight (I tried this in the gym)

Bill

Thats a relly cool knife. How much did you pay for it?

Chris

It looks from Bills navaja that the idea of fliging a pocket knife open did not start with the tacticals. How comon was this idea?

Good wishes
Frank

Robert Gray · 6th October 2005, 04:14 AM

Chris

Thank you for your reply - Again it makes good sense, though I am still
intrigued by knife fighting systems derived from fencing. Any comments?

Regards
Robert

Robert Gray · 6th October 2005, 04:18 AM

Frank

Thanks for those comments. It supports the views of Chris

Regards
Robert

Chris Evans · 6th October 2005, 08:15 AM

Hi Robert,

When you ask about knife fighting systems derived from fencing, you have to stipulate what type of fencing you have in mind.

Sword play has two distinctly different forms, technically known as that of `single time' and `double time', `time' meaning a distinct phase or movement. Spanish knife dueling, indeed most knife dueling, parallels early sword play . What has to be kept in mind however, is that unlike with swords, fencing with knives will not deliver a victory through the application of mere techniques, as there is much left to chance and other factors. To a lesser extent this also applied to early sword play and was the driving force behind its eventual evolution towards the more scientific `double time' play, which provides a more reliable fight; One that is less dependent on luck and tricks and also less prone to the mutual double hits, entanglements and bloody wrestling matches that plagued rapier and broadsword fights.

For a brief explanation of the two styles I reproduce here an extract from a paper that I wrote some time ago on the rapier. I also would like to draw attention to that early rapier fencing was technically fairly simple relying greatly on the preparation of attacks and attendant deceits and for parrying on a left hand implement was used. Later rapier play was still conducted in `single time' but became a good deal more reliant on the use of the blade for other than just delivering thrusts or cuts. Nevertheless, sword play only attained its current complexity and sophistication with `double time' play.

"The great demarcator in the history of sword play was the transition from fencing in `single' to `double time'. In the former, the preferred tactic was to provoke an attack and counter into the opponent's offense, and (if necessary) blocking the path of the incoming blade with one's own, also known as `covering'; These days this type of counterattack is usually referred to as a `time hit', a `time hit with opposition', or a `covered time hit'. In contrast, in `double time' fencing, the incoming attack is first parried with the sword blade and then followed up with a counter attack, the `riposte'. Of course, the above description is of single swords opposing each other; With left hand parrying implements, as was the rule with rapiers, the action became more complex but still retained the same essential character described above."

It should be noted that full `double time' swordplay became possible only with the advent of the very much lighter and faster purely thrusting small-sword of the late 18th century; Its fight was characterized by leading with the sword arm and leg and the frequent use of the lunge. In contrast, early rapier consisted of leading with the leg opposite to the sword side, holding back the sword and delivering attacks by taking a step forward, called a `pass', with the sword side leg and extending the sword arm. The lunge was rarely used.

Spanish knife play, according to the English fencing authority Egerton Castle, was based on early rapier play, and of course `sans covering', with attacks being delivered on the `pass' and leading with the leg opposite to the sword side. It has to be understood clearly that later sword play, that is, in `double time', cannot not be adapted to knives because they cannot parry on account of their short length. Even the very long, short sword like Gaucho facons and Spanish left hand daggers could not parry reliably for being too heavy and or too short and for this reason were used in conjunction with a cape.

Over the years there were numerous attempts by fencing masters to incorporate sword techniques into knife usage, but inevitably these were reiterations of early rapier or left hand dagger play, as exemplified by the section dealing with daggers in Alfred Hutton's `Cold Steel'.

There were also a few questionable, and in my view unsuccessful, attempts to introduce modern fencing elements such as leading with the knife hand and leg and primarily attacking the opponents knife hand, as done in epee and sabre duels. These techniques are not likely to work against a fighter who does not oblige by leading with the knife hand and in any event such an on-guard position is very risky because of the ease with which the extended knife can be displaced, trapped or by-passed. In fact, the majority of the self defense moves taught assume that that is how the attacker will behave.

I should close with the observation that the majority of movie knife fights are based on re-hashed `double time' sword fencing moves and are intended to be mere entertainment rather than a exposition of a sound way to duel with knives.

Cheers
Chris

Chris Evans · 6th October 2005, 08:29 AM

Hi Frank,

I have seen numerous antique large folders that could be flung open, but these had rather loose blades at the hinge to permit this action. Old navajas had riveted pivot pins and unlike the modern tactical folders, the tightness of the blade could not be finely adjusted, at least not easily in an age when few had the necessary tools - And a folder with a loose blade at the pivot pin is a very weak knife - So, it is a matter of guesswork if many were opened that way.

In any event and as we have seen, the Spanish authorities did not take well to locks of any kind and it is safe to assume that those that could be opened quickly on account of a fast action and lock would have been even less tolerated in most jurisdictions. Most lockers that can be opened quickly, like Bill's, are of French origins from the late 1800s, an era by which the navaja in Spain was in decline.

Cheers
Chris

Renegade Conquistador · 22nd October 2005, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

There were also a few questionable, and in my view unsuccessful, attempts to introduce modern fencing elements such as leading with the knife hand and leg and primarily attacking the opponents knife hand, as done in epee and sabre duels. These techniques are not likely to work against a fighter who does not oblige by leading with the knife hand and in any event such an on-guard position is very risky because of the ease with which the extended knife can be displaced, trapped or by-passed. In fact, the majority of the self defense moves taught assume that that is how the attacker will behave.

Many knifefighting methods make use of a strong-side (weapon-hand) lead. It can be seen in FMA, as well as modern Western military knife combat. In regards to the latter, the most obvious example would be the USMC "Biddle System" of Lt. Col. A.J. Drexel Biddle, and that of his protege, John Styers. Keep in mind that the original Biddle system was intended for use with the '03 Springfield sword bayonet, with a 16" blade.

As for the "fighter who does not oblige by leading with the knife hand", his weak side therefore becomes vulnerable instead, and he has sacrificed a good deal of reach with his own weapon.

No single guard position is going to be the right answer for every situation, but for knife-on-knife duelling, the strong-side lead clearly has its benefits.

6th October 2005, 08:15 AM	#6
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Robert, When you ask about knife fighting systems derived from fencing, you have to stipulate what type of fencing you have in mind. Sword play has two distinctly different forms, technically known as that of `single time' and `double time', `time' meaning a distinct phase or movement. Spanish knife dueling, indeed most knife dueling, parallels early sword play . What has to be kept in mind however, is that unlike with swords, fencing with knives will not deliver a victory through the application of mere techniques, as there is much left to chance and other factors. To a lesser extent this also applied to early sword play and was the driving force behind its eventual evolution towards the more scientific `double time' play, which provides a more reliable fight; One that is less dependent on luck and tricks and also less prone to the mutual double hits, entanglements and bloody wrestling matches that plagued rapier and broadsword fights. For a brief explanation of the two styles I reproduce here an extract from a paper that I wrote some time ago on the rapier. I also would like to draw attention to that early rapier fencing was technically fairly simple relying greatly on the preparation of attacks and attendant deceits and for parrying on a left hand implement was used. Later rapier play was still conducted in `single time' but became a good deal more reliant on the use of the blade for other than just delivering thrusts or cuts. Nevertheless, sword play only attained its current complexity and sophistication with `double time' play. "The great demarcator in the history of sword play was the transition from fencing in `single' to `double time'. In the former, the preferred tactic was to provoke an attack and counter into the opponent's offense, and (if necessary) blocking the path of the incoming blade with one's own, also known as `covering'; These days this type of counterattack is usually referred to as a `time hit', a `time hit with opposition', or a `covered time hit'. In contrast, in `double time' fencing, the incoming attack is first parried with the sword blade and then followed up with a counter attack, the `riposte'. Of course, the above description is of single swords opposing each other; With left hand parrying implements, as was the rule with rapiers, the action became more complex but still retained the same essential character described above." It should be noted that full `double time' swordplay became possible only with the advent of the very much lighter and faster purely thrusting small-sword of the late 18th century; Its fight was characterized by leading with the sword arm and leg and the frequent use of the lunge. In contrast, early rapier consisted of leading with the leg opposite to the sword side, holding back the sword and delivering attacks by taking a step forward, called a `pass', with the sword side leg and extending the sword arm. The lunge was rarely used. Spanish knife play, according to the English fencing authority Egerton Castle, was based on early rapier play, and of course `sans covering', with attacks being delivered on the `pass' and leading with the leg opposite to the sword side. It has to be understood clearly that later sword play, that is, in `double time', cannot not be adapted to knives because they cannot parry on account of their short length. Even the very long, short sword like Gaucho facons and Spanish left hand daggers could not parry reliably for being too heavy and or too short and for this reason were used in conjunction with a cape. Over the years there were numerous attempts by fencing masters to incorporate sword techniques into knife usage, but inevitably these were reiterations of early rapier or left hand dagger play, as exemplified by the section dealing with daggers in Alfred Hutton's `Cold Steel'. There were also a few questionable, and in my view unsuccessful, attempts to introduce modern fencing elements such as leading with the knife hand and leg and primarily attacking the opponents knife hand, as done in epee and sabre duels. These techniques are not likely to work against a fighter who does not oblige by leading with the knife hand and in any event such an on-guard position is very risky because of the ease with which the extended knife can be displaced, trapped or by-passed. In fact, the majority of the self defense moves taught assume that that is how the attacker will behave. I should close with the observation that the majority of movie knife fights are based on re-hashed `double time' sword fencing moves and are intended to be mere entertainment rather than a exposition of a sound way to duel with knives. Cheers Chris Last edited by Chris Evans; 6th October 2005 at 12:09 PM.

5th October 2005, 03:03 AM	#1
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Bill, You got a good one there. That lock is what the Spaniards would describe as a `teat-lock', the teat being the little stub on the heel of the blade that engages with the hole in the spine spring. This type of lock was comparatively rare in Spain and much liked by the French and Italian cutlers who use them to this day. It provides great security and as you say, on some models, a very fast opening - For this reason the Spanish authorities did not like them nor did their cutlers because it required precision fitting by highly skilled labour, which was scarce in their country. A near identical navaja is shown on plate 140 (pg 131) of Forton's "Antique Clasp Knives" and is described as probably made during the 19th century in French Rosellon (a border region near Catalunia). Depending on its overall state, it would fetch around $US500 on the open market and more if sold by a dealer. Cheers Chris

5th October 2005, 03:42 AM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Thank You, Chris

5th October 2005, 07:51 AM	#3
Frank Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 23	Helo Robert I agree completely with Chris. I am a senior black belt holder and have recived instruction in the knife and other common weapons. We use them as extensions of the body movments that we already mastered and back them up with our unarmed skills. This means that should somebody get past my knife they still have to face my kicks and other blows. But with all this knowledege I could not be sure to win aginst another knife in a fight (I tried this in the gym) Bill Thats a relly cool knife. How much did you pay for it? Chris It looks from Bills navaja that the idea of fliging a pocket knife open did not start with the tacticals. How comon was this idea? Good wishes Frank

6th October 2005, 04:14 AM	#4
Robert Gray Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 8	Chris Thank you for your reply - Again it makes good sense, though I am still intrigued by knife fighting systems derived from fencing. Any comments? Regards Robert

6th October 2005, 04:18 AM	#5
Robert Gray Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 8	Frank Thanks for those comments. It supports the views of Chris Regards Robert

6th October 2005, 08:29 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Frank, I have seen numerous antique large folders that could be flung open, but these had rather loose blades at the hinge to permit this action. Old navajas had riveted pivot pins and unlike the modern tactical folders, the tightness of the blade could not be finely adjusted, at least not easily in an age when few had the necessary tools - And a folder with a loose blade at the pivot pin is a very weak knife - So, it is a matter of guesswork if many were opened that way. In any event and as we have seen, the Spanish authorities did not take well to locks of any kind and it is safe to assume that those that could be opened quickly on account of a fast action and lock would have been even less tolerated in most jurisdictions. Most lockers that can be opened quickly, like Bill's, are of French origins from the late 1800s, an era by which the navaja in Spain was in decline. Cheers Chris