Native American bone breastplate

aiontay · 9th March 2013, 01:48 AM

Jim, I wouldn’t completely disagree, it is just that I think experts frequently overly complicate things, particularly when dealing with “exotic” tribal stuff. After all, the Japanese have plenty “today is a good day to die” sentiment in their culture, but anyone with enough money went in to battle with all the armor they could get. I suspect the culture of European knights had plenty of that sentiment as well, but that didn’t mean they took off their armor either. Remember the point of the battle, for all but the most suicidal, is to defeat the enemy which you do by killing more of them than they kill of you. I may be perfectly willing to die, but I’m going to do it in such a way as to take as many of them with me as possible, so wearing a multi-layer leather shirt and saying I don’t care if I die are not necessarily contradictory things. I read an account of a couple Crow warriors who had vowed to die in battle; they did, but they did so in such a way that allowed the rest of the Crows to overrun their enemies’ position, thereby winning the fight. I’d have to go back and check, but I believe some of the first person accounts of Indians at Little Big Horn have some of that “good day to die” rhetoric, but it wasn’t the Indians that died that day.

Battera, here in Oklahoma that is pretty much the rap on the Cherokees, but I’ll have to tell you it actually is rather unfair. I can assure you that I have been in plenty of Indian gatherings, but the only ones I’ve been in where everybody was speaking the native language were over in Cherokee country. I was at a stomp dance at Rocky Ford a couple of summers ago that was pretty Cherokee. Modern day powwows aren’t exactly the best place to go for tribally specific culture anyway.

aiontay · 9th March 2013, 03:18 AM

http://www.kiowatribe.org/?attachment_id=1882

Jim McDougall · 9th March 2013, 03:56 AM

Aiontay, actually I think we are on pretty much the same page, and the discussion on whether these breastplates were intended as defensive armor or ceremonial certainly has some relevance to our more philosophical review of the warrior ethos of these cultures.
Naturally what you say makes perfect sense, and while these warriors have reached a temporal state of resolution as far as thier own mortality, it does stand to reason that they would seek to last as long as possible to achieve thier purposes. It is known than in cases in the Sudan, warriors would bind themselves tightly with fabric to longer resist collapse after multiple bullet hits. There are of course many analogies describing these kinds of methods and practices in combat circumstances. I dont think anyone goes into battle intent on death, but in actual situations psychological effects often result in almost surreal perceptions of the actual nature of events taking place. I think one of the best accounts of these kinds of matters is "The Face of Battle" by the late Professor John Keegan.
In actuality, few ever know what they will do or how they will react when extremely dramatic things take place, but these warriors typically were quite mentally prepared to function effectively to accomplish goals, and to do so meant to preserve themselves to the fullest extent to do so. To simply die in battle without regard would be entirely senseless and accomplish nothing.

I agree about the Cherokee, and I have been to many of the locations in North Carolina, Tennessee and Oklahoma. They deeply cherish and revere thier heritage, and do not take preserving it lightly. My brother in law is of Cherokee and Comanche heritage. In my travels I have been fortunate to visit many American Indian heritage centers of many tribes and there is a profound difference between the 'tourist' trinkets in gift shops and the material in museums and observances of traditional ceremony and events.
One of the most moving experiences I have had was in a visit through the Black Hills, and to Wounded Knee, something I will never forget. The heritage center there is something I wish every American could experience.

VANDOO · 9th March 2013, 04:38 AM

NOTE IN THE PICTURE OF THE KIOWA GATHERING THESE WERE TRULY THEIR UNIFORMS AS THEY HAVE THEIR MEDALS AND AT LEAST ONE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN IN THE 101 AIRBORNE JUDGING FROM THE PATCH. IT LOOKS LIKE A LOT OF LANCES I WONDER WHAT THE CEREMONIE OR DANCE WAS. SOME ARE NOT DANCES BUT PRAYERS FROM WHAT I WAS TOLD IT DEPENDS ON IF IT GOES CLOCKWISE OR COUNTER CLOCKWISE. I WILL STOP BEFORE I STEP IN IT DUE TO MY IGNORANCE.

aiontay · 9th March 2013, 05:02 PM

It is the Kiowa Black Leggings; the more accurate translation would be Black Legs. They are one of the old Soldier Societies that was revived after WWII as a veterans organization, hence the modern military insignia. However, the other items are part of their “uniform” which is depicted in 19th Century ledger art. The red cape comes from an incident in which a society member rode through a line of Mexican soldiers and killed their commander who was wearing a red cape. They are also one of those societies that took a vow to stake themselves out to cover the retreat of others, hence the lances, but I can’t recall of any accounts of that actually happening. I suspect once we got horses that became rather obsolete. It was probably too easy to just ride by the guy who had pinned himself to the ground.

Battara · 9th March 2013, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

Battera, here in Oklahoma that is pretty much the rap on the Cherokees, but I’ll have to tell you it actually is rather unfair. I can assure you that I have been in plenty of Indian gatherings, but the only ones I’ve been in where everybody was speaking the native language were over in Cherokee country. I was at a stomp dance at Rocky Ford a couple of summers ago that was pretty Cherokee. Modern day powwows aren’t exactly the best place to go for tribally specific culture anyway.

Don't get me wrong, they have gone back to earlier garb in some cases and modernized it in others. I am not saying they don't have any at all. And yes some still speak Cherokee in both the Eastern and Western bands. Like you I too have been to events. Some kept elements of their older culture when others modernized before the Trail of Tears. A lot was lost though.

By the way, I am part Cherokee (as well as Filipino and Scots-Irish).

I agree that powwows are not the place to experience pure tribal cultures, especially since they are "Pan-Indian".

9th March 2013, 01:48 AM	#1
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Jim, I wouldn’t completely disagree, it is just that I think experts frequently overly complicate things, particularly when dealing with “exotic” tribal stuff. After all, the Japanese have plenty “today is a good day to die” sentiment in their culture, but anyone with enough money went in to battle with all the armor they could get. I suspect the culture of European knights had plenty of that sentiment as well, but that didn’t mean they took off their armor either. Remember the point of the battle, for all but the most suicidal, is to defeat the enemy which you do by killing more of them than they kill of you. I may be perfectly willing to die, but I’m going to do it in such a way as to take as many of them with me as possible, so wearing a multi-layer leather shirt and saying I don’t care if I die are not necessarily contradictory things. I read an account of a couple Crow warriors who had vowed to die in battle; they did, but they did so in such a way that allowed the rest of the Crows to overrun their enemies’ position, thereby winning the fight. I’d have to go back and check, but I believe some of the first person accounts of Indians at Little Big Horn have some of that “good day to die” rhetoric, but it wasn’t the Indians that died that day. Battera, here in Oklahoma that is pretty much the rap on the Cherokees, but I’ll have to tell you it actually is rather unfair. I can assure you that I have been in plenty of Indian gatherings, but the only ones I’ve been in where everybody was speaking the native language were over in Cherokee country. I was at a stomp dance at Rocky Ford a couple of summers ago that was pretty Cherokee. Modern day powwows aren’t exactly the best place to go for tribally specific culture anyway.

9th March 2013, 03:18 AM	#2
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	http://www.kiowatribe.org/?attachment_id=1882

9th March 2013, 03:56 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Aiontay, actually I think we are on pretty much the same page, and the discussion on whether these breastplates were intended as defensive armor or ceremonial certainly has some relevance to our more philosophical review of the warrior ethos of these cultures. Naturally what you say makes perfect sense, and while these warriors have reached a temporal state of resolution as far as thier own mortality, it does stand to reason that they would seek to last as long as possible to achieve thier purposes. It is known than in cases in the Sudan, warriors would bind themselves tightly with fabric to longer resist collapse after multiple bullet hits. There are of course many analogies describing these kinds of methods and practices in combat circumstances. I dont think anyone goes into battle intent on death, but in actual situations psychological effects often result in almost surreal perceptions of the actual nature of events taking place. I think one of the best accounts of these kinds of matters is "The Face of Battle" by the late Professor John Keegan. In actuality, few ever know what they will do or how they will react when extremely dramatic things take place, but these warriors typically were quite mentally prepared to function effectively to accomplish goals, and to do so meant to preserve themselves to the fullest extent to do so. To simply die in battle without regard would be entirely senseless and accomplish nothing. I agree about the Cherokee, and I have been to many of the locations in North Carolina, Tennessee and Oklahoma. They deeply cherish and revere thier heritage, and do not take preserving it lightly. My brother in law is of Cherokee and Comanche heritage. In my travels I have been fortunate to visit many American Indian heritage centers of many tribes and there is a profound difference between the 'tourist' trinkets in gift shops and the material in museums and observances of traditional ceremony and events. One of the most moving experiences I have had was in a visit through the Black Hills, and to Wounded Knee, something I will never forget. The heritage center there is something I wish every American could experience.

9th March 2013, 04:38 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NOTE IN THE PICTURE OF THE KIOWA GATHERING THESE WERE TRULY THEIR UNIFORMS AS THEY HAVE THEIR MEDALS AND AT LEAST ONE APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN IN THE 101 AIRBORNE JUDGING FROM THE PATCH. IT LOOKS LIKE A LOT OF LANCES I WONDER WHAT THE CEREMONIE OR DANCE WAS. SOME ARE NOT DANCES BUT PRAYERS FROM WHAT I WAS TOLD IT DEPENDS ON IF IT GOES CLOCKWISE OR COUNTER CLOCKWISE. I WILL STOP BEFORE I STEP IN IT DUE TO MY IGNORANCE.

9th March 2013, 05:02 PM	#5
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	It is the Kiowa Black Leggings; the more accurate translation would be Black Legs. They are one of the old Soldier Societies that was revived after WWII as a veterans organization, hence the modern military insignia. However, the other items are part of their “uniform” which is depicted in 19th Century ledger art. The red cape comes from an incident in which a society member rode through a line of Mexican soldiers and killed their commander who was wearing a red cape. They are also one of those societies that took a vow to stake themselves out to cover the retreat of others, hence the lances, but I can’t recall of any accounts of that actually happening. I suspect once we got horses that became rather obsolete. It was probably too easy to just ride by the guy who had pinned himself to the ground.