Native American bone breastplate

Battara · 8th March 2013, 01:22 AM

Barry I can tell you this much - at today's powwows the Cherokee take on regalia based on Plains garb because they no longer have much of their own anymore.

VANDOO · 8th March 2013, 05:29 AM

ITS TRUE THAT MUCH HAS BEEN LOST TO THE TRIBES ESPECIALLY BY TRIBES WHO LOST EVERYTHING AND WERE MOVED FAR FROM THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS. THIS BEING THE CASE IT IS NO WONDER TRADITIONAL DRESS WOULD BE LOST. I SUSPECT SOME COULD BE LOOKED UP IN OLD MUSEUM COLLECTIONS AND DRAWINGS BUT USUALY A FORIGNER WILL ONLY NOTE WHAT APPEALS TO HIM TO REPRODUCE OR AQUIRE FOR A COLLECTION. SO WHAT THE TRIBE FOUND IMPORTANT MAY BE OVERLOOKED OR HIDDEN BY THE TRIBE AND LOST FROM SUCH COLLECTIONS.
NATIVE AMERICANS FOUGHT FOR THE SAME REASONS AS ALL TRIBAL SOCIETYS AND WENT TO WAR TO WIN AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILY,TRIBE ,REPUTATION AND HUNTING GROUNDS, NOT TO DIE. IF A BATTLE WAS LOST THE DEFEATED ONES TRYED TO GET BACK AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILYS AND HOMES. THE TRIBE MIGHT HAVE TO LEAVE QUICKLY AND LOSE REPUTATION, POSSESIONS AND PART OF THEIR VALUABLE HUNTING GROUNDS. BUT WOULD LIVE TO GROW STRONGER TO TRY AND GET THESE THINGS BACK IN FUTURE. THE CHANTS ABOUT DEATH WERE TO PREPARE THEM SO THEY WOULD NOT BE AFRAID AND DISGRACE THEIR TRIBE OR THEMSELVES BY PUTTING UP A POOR FIGHT OR NONE AT ALL. THE DEFEATED ALWAYS TALKED OF HOW FEIRCE THE WARRIORS OF THE OTHER TRIBE WERE THUS BUILDING THAT TRIBES REPUTATION. THEY STILL CONSIDERED THEMSELVES WARRIORS AND PROMISED TO BECOME STRONGER AND MORE FEIRCE AND TO DO BETTER IN FUTURE. WITH SOME TRIBES THEIR REPUTATION ALONE WAS ENOUGH FOR LESSER TRIBES TO MOVE AND NOT FIGHT WHEN THEY CAME INTO THEIR TERRITORY.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE.
THE VIKINGS WITH THEIR PRAYERS TO ODIN THAT THEY DIE HONORABLY IN BATTLE AND GO TO VALHALLA WAS A WAY TO BANISH FEAR NOT A PRAYER FOR DEATH. THEY TOO WANTED TO RETURN TO THE HARD LAND WHERE THEY LIVED WITH LOOT TO TAKE CARE OF AND CONTINUE TO PROTECT THEIR TRIBE AND FAMILY. IN ALL TIMES ALL RACES OF WARRIORS HAVE PREPARED THEIR MINDS WHEN GOING INTO HARMS WAY. NONE GOES TO DIE BUT TO WIN. THEY BELEAVED IF ONE DOES DIE IT IS BETTER TO DIE FIGHTING AND WITH HONOR AND PERHAPS GO TO VALHALLA THAN TO DIE AFRAID.

fearn · 8th March 2013, 05:29 PM

It is a nice piece, as others have said.

The one note I'd add is one of caution. These items are often worn by the dancers at modern pow-wows, and I've seen all the pieces needed to make a modern one for sale around the dances. This has a legitimate use, in that dancers need to repair their gear or get the materials to enhance their costumes. Unfortunately, it would be fairly easy for someone to use these things to try to fake an antique.

Considering how commonly available the components are, and considering how popular Indian antiques are, I would be very careful about aging any of these pieces from photographs. Not that I'm suspicious of this one per se, but I'm not sure it can be authenticated without handling it.

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2013, 07:50 PM

Interesting views into collectible and commercial aspects. For me, as always, I enjoy learning more on the anthropological and historical perspectives. I very much welcomed the opportunity to view this example and learn more on this remarkable culture, which gratefully continues to gail more well deserved attention and respect.
Thank you Colin for posting this!

Iain · 8th March 2013, 08:45 PM

Neat item - this link might be of interest since you can download a very high resolution photo showing one of these being worn.

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/98509250/

aiontay · 9th March 2013, 01:48 AM

Jim, I wouldn’t completely disagree, it is just that I think experts frequently overly complicate things, particularly when dealing with “exotic” tribal stuff. After all, the Japanese have plenty “today is a good day to die” sentiment in their culture, but anyone with enough money went in to battle with all the armor they could get. I suspect the culture of European knights had plenty of that sentiment as well, but that didn’t mean they took off their armor either. Remember the point of the battle, for all but the most suicidal, is to defeat the enemy which you do by killing more of them than they kill of you. I may be perfectly willing to die, but I’m going to do it in such a way as to take as many of them with me as possible, so wearing a multi-layer leather shirt and saying I don’t care if I die are not necessarily contradictory things. I read an account of a couple Crow warriors who had vowed to die in battle; they did, but they did so in such a way that allowed the rest of the Crows to overrun their enemies’ position, thereby winning the fight. I’d have to go back and check, but I believe some of the first person accounts of Indians at Little Big Horn have some of that “good day to die” rhetoric, but it wasn’t the Indians that died that day.

Battera, here in Oklahoma that is pretty much the rap on the Cherokees, but I’ll have to tell you it actually is rather unfair. I can assure you that I have been in plenty of Indian gatherings, but the only ones I’ve been in where everybody was speaking the native language were over in Cherokee country. I was at a stomp dance at Rocky Ford a couple of summers ago that was pretty Cherokee. Modern day powwows aren’t exactly the best place to go for tribally specific culture anyway.

aiontay · 9th March 2013, 03:18 AM

http://www.kiowatribe.org/?attachment_id=1882

Battara · 9th March 2013, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

Battera, here in Oklahoma that is pretty much the rap on the Cherokees, but I’ll have to tell you it actually is rather unfair. I can assure you that I have been in plenty of Indian gatherings, but the only ones I’ve been in where everybody was speaking the native language were over in Cherokee country. I was at a stomp dance at Rocky Ford a couple of summers ago that was pretty Cherokee. Modern day powwows aren’t exactly the best place to go for tribally specific culture anyway.

Don't get me wrong, they have gone back to earlier garb in some cases and modernized it in others. I am not saying they don't have any at all. And yes some still speak Cherokee in both the Eastern and Western bands. Like you I too have been to events. Some kept elements of their older culture when others modernized before the Trail of Tears. A lot was lost though.

By the way, I am part Cherokee (as well as Filipino and Scots-Irish).

I agree that powwows are not the place to experience pure tribal cultures, especially since they are "Pan-Indian".

8th March 2013, 01:22 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Barry I can tell you this much - at today's powwows the Cherokee take on regalia based on Plains garb because they no longer have much of their own anymore.

8th March 2013, 05:29 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ITS TRUE THAT MUCH HAS BEEN LOST TO THE TRIBES ESPECIALLY BY TRIBES WHO LOST EVERYTHING AND WERE MOVED FAR FROM THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS. THIS BEING THE CASE IT IS NO WONDER TRADITIONAL DRESS WOULD BE LOST. I SUSPECT SOME COULD BE LOOKED UP IN OLD MUSEUM COLLECTIONS AND DRAWINGS BUT USUALY A FORIGNER WILL ONLY NOTE WHAT APPEALS TO HIM TO REPRODUCE OR AQUIRE FOR A COLLECTION. SO WHAT THE TRIBE FOUND IMPORTANT MAY BE OVERLOOKED OR HIDDEN BY THE TRIBE AND LOST FROM SUCH COLLECTIONS. NATIVE AMERICANS FOUGHT FOR THE SAME REASONS AS ALL TRIBAL SOCIETYS AND WENT TO WAR TO WIN AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILY,TRIBE ,REPUTATION AND HUNTING GROUNDS, NOT TO DIE. IF A BATTLE WAS LOST THE DEFEATED ONES TRYED TO GET BACK AND PROTECT THEIR FAMILYS AND HOMES. THE TRIBE MIGHT HAVE TO LEAVE QUICKLY AND LOSE REPUTATION, POSSESIONS AND PART OF THEIR VALUABLE HUNTING GROUNDS. BUT WOULD LIVE TO GROW STRONGER TO TRY AND GET THESE THINGS BACK IN FUTURE. THE CHANTS ABOUT DEATH WERE TO PREPARE THEM SO THEY WOULD NOT BE AFRAID AND DISGRACE THEIR TRIBE OR THEMSELVES BY PUTTING UP A POOR FIGHT OR NONE AT ALL. THE DEFEATED ALWAYS TALKED OF HOW FEIRCE THE WARRIORS OF THE OTHER TRIBE WERE THUS BUILDING THAT TRIBES REPUTATION. THEY STILL CONSIDERED THEMSELVES WARRIORS AND PROMISED TO BECOME STRONGER AND MORE FEIRCE AND TO DO BETTER IN FUTURE. WITH SOME TRIBES THEIR REPUTATION ALONE WAS ENOUGH FOR LESSER TRIBES TO MOVE AND NOT FIGHT WHEN THEY CAME INTO THEIR TERRITORY. ANOTHER EXAMPLE. THE VIKINGS WITH THEIR PRAYERS TO ODIN THAT THEY DIE HONORABLY IN BATTLE AND GO TO VALHALLA WAS A WAY TO BANISH FEAR NOT A PRAYER FOR DEATH. THEY TOO WANTED TO RETURN TO THE HARD LAND WHERE THEY LIVED WITH LOOT TO TAKE CARE OF AND CONTINUE TO PROTECT THEIR TRIBE AND FAMILY. IN ALL TIMES ALL RACES OF WARRIORS HAVE PREPARED THEIR MINDS WHEN GOING INTO HARMS WAY. NONE GOES TO DIE BUT TO WIN. THEY BELEAVED IF ONE DOES DIE IT IS BETTER TO DIE FIGHTING AND WITH HONOR AND PERHAPS GO TO VALHALLA THAN TO DIE AFRAID.

8th March 2013, 05:29 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	It is a nice piece, as others have said. The one note I'd add is one of caution. These items are often worn by the dancers at modern pow-wows, and I've seen all the pieces needed to make a modern one for sale around the dances. This has a legitimate use, in that dancers need to repair their gear or get the materials to enhance their costumes. Unfortunately, it would be fairly easy for someone to use these things to try to fake an antique. Considering how commonly available the components are, and considering how popular Indian antiques are, I would be very careful about aging any of these pieces from photographs. Not that I'm suspicious of this one per se, but I'm not sure it can be authenticated without handling it. Best, F

8th March 2013, 07:50 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Interesting views into collectible and commercial aspects. For me, as always, I enjoy learning more on the anthropological and historical perspectives. I very much welcomed the opportunity to view this example and learn more on this remarkable culture, which gratefully continues to gail more well deserved attention and respect. Thank you Colin for posting this!

8th March 2013, 08:45 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Neat item - this link might be of interest since you can download a very high resolution photo showing one of these being worn. http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/98509250/

9th March 2013, 01:48 AM	#6
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Jim, I wouldn’t completely disagree, it is just that I think experts frequently overly complicate things, particularly when dealing with “exotic” tribal stuff. After all, the Japanese have plenty “today is a good day to die” sentiment in their culture, but anyone with enough money went in to battle with all the armor they could get. I suspect the culture of European knights had plenty of that sentiment as well, but that didn’t mean they took off their armor either. Remember the point of the battle, for all but the most suicidal, is to defeat the enemy which you do by killing more of them than they kill of you. I may be perfectly willing to die, but I’m going to do it in such a way as to take as many of them with me as possible, so wearing a multi-layer leather shirt and saying I don’t care if I die are not necessarily contradictory things. I read an account of a couple Crow warriors who had vowed to die in battle; they did, but they did so in such a way that allowed the rest of the Crows to overrun their enemies’ position, thereby winning the fight. I’d have to go back and check, but I believe some of the first person accounts of Indians at Little Big Horn have some of that “good day to die” rhetoric, but it wasn’t the Indians that died that day. Battera, here in Oklahoma that is pretty much the rap on the Cherokees, but I’ll have to tell you it actually is rather unfair. I can assure you that I have been in plenty of Indian gatherings, but the only ones I’ve been in where everybody was speaking the native language were over in Cherokee country. I was at a stomp dance at Rocky Ford a couple of summers ago that was pretty Cherokee. Modern day powwows aren’t exactly the best place to go for tribally specific culture anyway.

9th March 2013, 03:18 AM	#7
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	http://www.kiowatribe.org/?attachment_id=1882