Spanish Cavalry Pistol with Patilla Style Miquelet Lock 1808-1812

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Dear Dana:

Key (lock) is "at 3 fashions". Del miquelete takes more acting spring up, the "trigger" (cock) and screw scree (flint screw) with hoop, and the trigger system. Key to French takes rake flange fixed to the bowl (pan) and rake (steel) rounded and curved (but is striated as in miquelete). Key "to the Roman", takes the rake spring arrangement (mainspring above), although it is fixed as in the miquelete by ear and not by screw intern.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Sorry Fernando K, I am not sure what you are trying to tell me.

Maybe you wouldn't call this a patilla style lock. It is certainly a late example. The frizzen / battery spring is forward of the pan and has no bridle, but it still looks like a patilla to me.

[Fernando K]

Dear Dana:

LAVIN, page 184:

......while the common patilla-a las tres modas cost only nine.

Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Dear Dana:

LAVIN, page 184:

......while the common patilla-a las tres modas cost only nine.

Fernando K

Hey Fernando K,

Looking at page 184, even Dr. Lavin could not follow the “greatly revised nomenclature” that replaced that of Espinar. He says “..the traditional miquelet (patilla) now called, for some obscure reason, a las tres modas”.

Way too OBSCURE for me.


Miqueleter thoughtfully provided me two modern illustrations from Spanish Army Of The Napoleonic Wars Volume 2 1808-1812. One image shows a belt pistol worn on a waist belt, and the other shows two belt pistols hooked to the front of a sash.

Dr. Lavin used this image which shows a baldric (Xarpa) with belt pistols.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...de_tabacos.jpg

*** Are there any other contemporary illustrations out there? ***

Miqueleter also sent me some additional information on Model 1791 locks and pistols. It comes from the book Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700–1821. One of the authors is Herman Benninghoff. He also wrote a great article for the American Society of Arms Collectors titled Some Spanish Weapons in the American Revolution. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11084

[Fernando K]

Estimado Dana:

LAVIN no ha llegado a comprender la "patilla-a las tres modas" y ha catalogado el nombre por una "obscura razón". pero en el Apendice A, pagina 239, sobre la "Tarifa de los precios arreglados vajo (bajo) los cuales se ha de executar (ejecutar) la Obra de las Armas del Rey Nuestro Señor por sus Arcabuceros" (1750)

Una llave (lock) a las tres modas concluída según se acostumbra, nueve Doblones cencillos (sencillos)......

Plantilla (plate) con el Estribillo (bridge) en la Cazoleta (pan)....

Estribillo (bridge) del Gatillo (cock)......

Tampoco su glosario es perfecto. Espinar escribió en el 1600, y la "patilla a las tres modas" no existía.

Como ejemplo, dos errores evidentes:

Pagina 287: "Juegos al revés" definido como platina trasera (back action). Es una llave (lock) a la moda con los calzos (sear) invertidos.

Página 289: "Portavís", definido como banda del cañón (barrel band). Es la contraplatina (side plate)

Respecto de la llave clasificada como modelo 1791, en realidad corresponde a la carabina modelo 1802 para artilleros:

"Es de chispa, con llave (lock) de miquelete de cazoleta (pan) de latón......"

BARCELO RUBI "Armamento Portatil Español, 1764-1939", pagina 162

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Dear Dana:

LAVIN has failed to understand the "pin-to three modes" and has listed the name of a "dark reason." but in Appendix A, page 239, on the "fixed rate prices vajo (low) which has of executing (execute) the work of the King's Arms for its Arcabuceros Lord" (1750)

A key (lock) at three Concluded as customary fashion, nine cencillos Doubloon (simple) ......

Template (plate) with the Chorus (bridge) in the pan (bread) ....

Chorus (bridge) Trigger (cock) ...... Dear Dana:

LAVIN has failed to understand the "pin-to three modes" and has listed the name of a "dark reason." but in Appendix A, page 239, on the "fixed rate prices vajo (low) which has of executing (execute) the work of the King's Arms for its Arcabuceros Lord" (1750)

A key (lock) at three Concluded as customary fashion, nine cencillos Doubloon (simple) ......

Template (plate) with the Chorus (bridge) in the pan (bread) ....

Chorus (bridge) Trigger (cock) ......

Neither your glossary is perfect. Espinar wrote in 1600, and "pin the three fashion" did not exist.

As an example, two obvious errors:

Page 287: "Games backwards" defined as back plate (back action). It is a key (lock) to fashion with the shims (SEAR) invested.

Page 289: "Portavís" defined as a band of the barrel (barrel band). Is contraplatina (side plate)

Regarding the key classified as model 1791, actually corresponds to the 1802 model for artillery carbine:

"Is spark, lockable (lock) of miquelete trough (pan) brass ......"

BARCELO RUBI "Laptop Spanish Armament, 1764-1939", page 162

Affectionately. Fernando K

Neither your glossary is perfect. Espinar wrote in 1600, and "pin the three fashion" did not exist.

As an example, two obvious errors:

Page 287: "Games backwards" defined as back plate (back action). It is a key (lock) to fashion with the shims (SEAR) invested.

Page 289: "Portavís" defined as a band of the barrel (barrel band). Is contraplatina (side plate)

Regarding the key classified as model 1791, actually corresponds to the 1802 model for artillery carbine:

"Is spark, lockable (lock) of miquelete trough (pan) brass ......"

BARCELO RUBI "Laptop Spanish Armament, 1764-1939", page 162

Affectionately. Fernando K
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[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Regarding the key classified as model 1791, actually corresponds to the 1802 model for artillery carbine:

Fernando K, Please see the first post. Juan L. Calvó tells me this is a cavalry pistol made at the Valencia Factory (1808-1812). It may just be the lanyard ring that makes it a "cavalry pistol".

I don't have a copy of “Armamento Español en la Guerra de Independencia”, so I can't check Juan L. Calvó's photos. Do you have a copy? Does anyone have a copy? They only printed a limited edition of 1,000.

The lock looks a lot like the one labeled Model 1791 in Benninghoff's Spanish Weapons in the American Revolution and the one shown in plate 65 from the Scollard Collection.

Can you post some photos of BARCELO RUBI "Laptop Spanish Armament, 1764-1939", page 162?

[Miqueleter]

Dana et al

Allow me to quote Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821 page 31 "In 1791 Spanish officials ordered a change in the lock for all military firearms." All military firearms would seem to include the musket, carbine, and pistol for infantry, artillery, and cavalry, I should think. Of course the lock size would vary according to type of firearm. The brass pan was incorporated in the 1791 pattern lock. As Fernando K points out, the 1791 could be defined as a "a las tres modas." While Dr. Lavin didn't go out of his way to promote the "a las tres modas", he apparently foresaw the need to provide qualification on the term, hence, the "patilla-a las tres modas."

Dana, I have found a miquelet lock pistol, military type, with a look-a-like lanyard loop on Calvo's website, when I find it again, I'll send PM.

Respectfully and Best Regards, miqueleter

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

... Can you post some photos of BARCELO RUBI "Laptop Spanish Armament, 1764-1939", page 162?

You mean item 5# of page 162 ? The picture is not so clear -

.