An European - Manding sword ?

Tim Simmons · 1st October 2005, 11:12 AM

Some interesting facts and figures on the Mandingo Wars and many other colonial conflicts can be found at www.onwar.com . Tim

Tim Simmons · 2nd October 2005, 10:01 PM

Zan, I just thought I should add that saying this was a copy of a French sword was not meant as if it was made as a reproduction. I should think the original owner in Mali or there abouts was an extremely lucky chap, and so are you even if the weapon has a look that that is difficult to date . I have some pieces that have obviously lived in a draw for a lifetime or more, then when they come out no one can believe it because there is no date stamp on ethnographic weapons. Tim

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2005, 04:51 AM

I tend to agree with references to similarities to French sabres with this example, as it does reflect influences of 19th century French military forms. This does seem a 20th century interpretation of this form, and would concur with French colonial presence of course. It also seems that varying forms of European style stirrup hilt sabres are known to have been used by various military and para-military factions in West Africa even recently (one was seen in a photo of a khaki uniformed individual of a rebel faction which I believe was in Sierra Leone, from magazine item several years ago).

The Manding sabres which are easily recognized with elaborate guardless hilts and decorated scabbards most definitely used European blades, often Solingen but more frequently French sabre blades. It seems that during the 19th century and into the early 20th, tribes such as the Manding preferred thier own mounts and had no inclination to reproduce European hilts, at least as far as I am aware. The Tuareg also have maintained thier own familiar mounts on takouba, despite the obvious use of European blades regularly.

I would consider this sword intended for use by tribal militant groups in most likely West African regions, and probably well into 20th century. It is interesting to see the braided wire on the grip which seems skillfully applied despite the ill fitting brass mounts, reminding me of many rudimentary restoration jobs on early military sabres, as might be found with local armourers or blacksmiths simply furbishing weapons for troops. It does not seem that Manding or other Saharan tribesmen would be interested in trying to duplicate such military detail, nor using a weapon atypical of thier traditional form.

Best regards,
Jim

Zan · 4th October 2005, 03:14 AM

Thank you Ahriman, Jim and Tim.

Because of the quality of this sword, wich is far better than my other west-african swords and knifes, I though it HAS to be an all-European sword, but the possibility of a reproduction is to be seriously considered, for all the reasons you have mentionned.

Don't worry Tim, even if it is a copy, I keep loving this sword

. More than beeing only concerned by edged weapons, the members of this forum and myself love the ethnographic background of each one, and this particular sword is a good example of a rich, though not entirely known, history. The part of mystery behind each sword is always fascinating

1st October 2005, 11:12 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Some interesting facts and figures on the Mandingo Wars and many other colonial conflicts can be found at www.onwar.com . Tim

2nd October 2005, 10:01 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Zan, I just thought I should add that saying this was a copy of a French sword was not meant as if it was made as a reproduction. I should think the original owner in Mali or there abouts was an extremely lucky chap, and so are you even if the weapon has a look that that is difficult to date . I have some pieces that have obviously lived in a draw for a lifetime or more, then when they come out no one can believe it because there is no date stamp on ethnographic weapons. Tim

3rd October 2005, 04:51 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,444	I tend to agree with references to similarities to French sabres with this example, as it does reflect influences of 19th century French military forms. This does seem a 20th century interpretation of this form, and would concur with French colonial presence of course. It also seems that varying forms of European style stirrup hilt sabres are known to have been used by various military and para-military factions in West Africa even recently (one was seen in a photo of a khaki uniformed individual of a rebel faction which I believe was in Sierra Leone, from magazine item several years ago). The Manding sabres which are easily recognized with elaborate guardless hilts and decorated scabbards most definitely used European blades, often Solingen but more frequently French sabre blades. It seems that during the 19th century and into the early 20th, tribes such as the Manding preferred thier own mounts and had no inclination to reproduce European hilts, at least as far as I am aware. The Tuareg also have maintained thier own familiar mounts on takouba, despite the obvious use of European blades regularly. I would consider this sword intended for use by tribal militant groups in most likely West African regions, and probably well into 20th century. It is interesting to see the braided wire on the grip which seems skillfully applied despite the ill fitting brass mounts, reminding me of many rudimentary restoration jobs on early military sabres, as might be found with local armourers or blacksmiths simply furbishing weapons for troops. It does not seem that Manding or other Saharan tribesmen would be interested in trying to duplicate such military detail, nor using a weapon atypical of thier traditional form. Best regards, Jim

4th October 2005, 03:14 AM	#4
Zan Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montréal, Province of Québec, Canada Posts: 46	Thank you Ahriman, Jim and Tim. Because of the quality of this sword, wich is far better than my other west-african swords and knifes, I though it HAS to be an all-European sword, but the possibility of a reproduction is to be seriously considered, for all the reasons you have mentionned. Don't worry Tim, even if it is a copy, I keep loving this sword . More than beeing only concerned by edged weapons, the members of this forum and myself love the ethnographic background of each one, and this particular sword is a good example of a rich, though not entirely known, history. The part of mystery behind each sword is always fascinating