The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

This is a point where we will just have to disagree - the Yemeni blades, or blades found in Yemeni hilts to be more precise - do look European or often are European. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on that point. I'm rather curious what Turkish blades you think have that profile, a deep single fuller and are from that period... Anyways, that's perhaps a topic for another time.

As always, I'll be interested what you find in the museums, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of a "smoking gun" one way or the other.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain... European blades certainly did get fitted up to Yemeni hilts absolutely agreed but not (I suspect) the type of straight, broad, virtually nonflexing long Yemeni blades on the foto below. I think these are Ottoman linked. I have pushed onto pictures below(not in order) all the steps between the Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni and Omani swords which makes it clear where my line of enquiry is going...to the museums!!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain... European blades certainly did get fitted up to Yemeni hilts absolutely agreed but not (I suspect) the type of straight broad virtually nonflexing long Yemeni blades on the foto below. I think these are Ottoman linked.

Huge difference in the geometry and fullers. I see what you are getting at, but one straight, single fuller pattern is not quite like another. Notice the thickness, profile, geometry of the edges, relative width of the fullers among many other factors.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Huge difference in the geometry and fullers. I see what you are getting at, but one straight, single fuller pattern is not quite like another. Notice the thickness, profile, geometry of the edges, relative width of the fullers among many other factors.

Salaams Iain ~Ya but influence? European Trade or somewhere else?
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~Ya but influence? European Trade or somewhere else?
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I'm not aware of the profile seen in the image of Yemeni long hilts being found in Ottoman work. The comparison images you showed don't really work for the reasons highlighted above.

I am aware of it in European trade blades - in fact very common in these blades... I for one can draw certain conclusions from that. Deductive logic says...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

I'm not aware of the profile seen in the image of Yemeni long hilts being found in Ottoman work. The comparison images you showed don't really work for the reasons highlighted above.

I am aware of it in European trade blades - in fact very common in these blades... I for one can draw certain conclusions from that. Deductive logic says...

Salaams Iain ..It is by no means solved as yet.

1. First point ~ the 2nd picture above shows a man holding sword, Mamluke style, comparable with the Mamlukes in the Ottoman museum also shown in picture 4 ~
2. The man holding sword is I believe the same blade "format" as the Yemeni Sayfs... perhaps infact partly the origin of it.
3. The hilts however are where my main emphasis is placed. Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni, Omani all on long blades though in the transition finally quite different blades...ending with the flexible Omani dancing style.

I view all this as influence and aim to consider the Yemeni Sayf as a contender for the origin of species of the Omani dancing sword... aware as always that there are many possibilities but the transition from long Yemeni hilt (and or blade) and prior to that Ottoman hilt (and or blade) to long Omani Hilt (and or blade) seems plausible.

However, I hope I'm not wasting too much ink !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Whilst I note that the above interesting discussion has for the present discounted the issue of flexibility, I have just one question for a straight "yes" or "no" answer please.
Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?
If not, then it would be reasonable to assume that those that DO NOT, were, or COULD have been, used for combat, and therefore could not accurately be called Dancing Swords. I have a Sayf in my collection which has only about 2" flex....pic below.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Whilst I note that the above interesting discussion has for the present discounted the issue of flexibility, I have just one question for a straight "yes" or "no" answer please.
Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?
If not, then it would be reasonable to assume that those that DO NOT, were, or COULD have been, used for combat, and therefore could not accurately be called Dancing Swords. I have a Sayf in my collection which has only about 2" flex....pic below.

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ I once went to an interview in which the interviewer would only answer questions with two words... either "yes" or "no".

In "Ethnographics" I doubt the same technique can be applied.

The first point is that not all blades danced with in Oman are straight flexible ones... with nothing else to hand dancers use pretty well anything similar including rifles, camel sticks and any variety of sword avialable...I can show the mimic fighting taking place with a curved sword and a sandal for a shield. So it would be quite wrong to be so specific.

Your question (though by no means a closed or completed querry) asks; Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?

Technically I think so. All the ones I have seen and handled are flexible but... and the BUT is big ... There appear to be swords from probably the Red Sea region that are not flexible ... that look like Omani Dancing Swords but which are not flexible..and no-one knows why. Logically they could be rehilts of otherwise previous fighting blades (foreign) on Omani Hilts. We know for example that Muscat since the 70s has been active in the business of rehilting all manner of foreign blades onto Omani Long Hilts. We know that these blades were provided from Sanaa and several have Ethiopian blades originally German. The Red Sea link is therefor highly likely. Your blade may be related to the blade at Kattara for comments #1. The apparent blade cross section from what I can see... makes that blade and yours similar ... not a flat springy dancing blade but stiff..with a wing shaped cross section.

Naturally there is a very big difference in the application between wholly flexible and wholly stiff blades, though, try as I might, I still haven't unearthed the reason why these odd stiff variants turn up now and again mounted on Omani long hilts, however, since I'm in the Muscat Museums next week I will be giving that one a lot of time.

As to the yes or no answer technique I repeat that ethnographic detective work can never be so limited..The Forum would only be about two pages long based on that structure...yes or no ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.