The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

As always, it relates to cost and quality. Did Hadramaut have water driven hammers? One of the main reasons behind the economical production of blades in Solingen from a fairly early period... The ability to produce quality blades locally isn't necessarily an indication they could be produced cheaply or in a competitive volume.

By the 16th century Solingen was already making use of water driven mechanical hammers to increase the production of blade blanks. This was unusual in Europe at the time and as far as I know was not an industrial technique common in the Ottoman empire or Yemen... This industrialization only increased with time. I would also point out, to my understanding the Ottomans lost control of Yemen in the mid 17th century (principally Sana'a)?

Mechanical production of blade blanks increased production time about 5-6x over hand forging.

Solingen was the force it was because of the industrial tools they employed - allowing for a competitive edge, even when long distance transportation was factored in.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain.. Its odd but I was thinking about water hammers and if the Hadramaut had them. I will try to delve into that. Normally I would simply go and have a look but as you know its not possible. Further to that... looking at the Yemeni blades they just dont look like European blades. They do look mildly Red Sea perhaps from Turkish sources. However that is slightly off centre since we are actually looking at where were the early Omani Sayf dancing "blades" made (other than in Oman) . More as it unfolds.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain.. Its odd but I was thinking about water hammers and if the Hadramaut had them. I will try to delve into that. Normally I would simply go and have a look but as you know its not possible. Further to that... looking at the Yemeni blades they just dont look like European blades. They do look mildly Red Sea perhaps from Turkish sources. However that is slightly off centre since we are actually looking at where were the early Omani Sayf dancing "blades" made (other than in Oman) . More as it unfolds.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

This is a point where we will just have to disagree - the Yemeni blades, or blades found in Yemeni hilts to be more precise - do look European or often are European. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on that point. I'm rather curious what Turkish blades you think have that profile, a deep single fuller and are from that period... Anyways, that's perhaps a topic for another time.

As always, I'll be interested what you find in the museums, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of a "smoking gun" one way or the other.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

This is a point where we will just have to disagree - the Yemeni blades, or blades found in Yemeni hilts to be more precise - do look European or often are European. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on that point. I'm rather curious what Turkish blades you think have that profile, a deep single fuller and are from that period... Anyways, that's perhaps a topic for another time.

As always, I'll be interested what you find in the museums, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of a "smoking gun" one way or the other.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain... European blades certainly did get fitted up to Yemeni hilts absolutely agreed but not (I suspect) the type of straight, broad, virtually nonflexing long Yemeni blades on the foto below. I think these are Ottoman linked. I have pushed onto pictures below(not in order) all the steps between the Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni and Omani swords which makes it clear where my line of enquiry is going...to the museums!!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain... European blades certainly did get fitted up to Yemeni hilts absolutely agreed but not (I suspect) the type of straight broad virtually nonflexing long Yemeni blades on the foto below. I think these are Ottoman linked.

Huge difference in the geometry and fullers. I see what you are getting at, but one straight, single fuller pattern is not quite like another. Notice the thickness, profile, geometry of the edges, relative width of the fullers among many other factors.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Huge difference in the geometry and fullers. I see what you are getting at, but one straight, single fuller pattern is not quite like another. Notice the thickness, profile, geometry of the edges, relative width of the fullers among many other factors.

Salaams Iain ~Ya but influence? European Trade or somewhere else?
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~Ya but influence? European Trade or somewhere else?
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I'm not aware of the profile seen in the image of Yemeni long hilts being found in Ottoman work. The comparison images you showed don't really work for the reasons highlighted above.

I am aware of it in European trade blades - in fact very common in these blades... I for one can draw certain conclusions from that. Deductive logic says...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

I'm not aware of the profile seen in the image of Yemeni long hilts being found in Ottoman work. The comparison images you showed don't really work for the reasons highlighted above.

I am aware of it in European trade blades - in fact very common in these blades... I for one can draw certain conclusions from that. Deductive logic says...

Salaams Iain ..It is by no means solved as yet.

1. First point ~ the 2nd picture above shows a man holding sword, Mamluke style, comparable with the Mamlukes in the Ottoman museum also shown in picture 4 ~
2. The man holding sword is I believe the same blade "format" as the Yemeni Sayfs... perhaps infact partly the origin of it.
3. The hilts however are where my main emphasis is placed. Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni, Omani all on long blades though in the transition finally quite different blades...ending with the flexible Omani dancing style.

I view all this as influence and aim to consider the Yemeni Sayf as a contender for the origin of species of the Omani dancing sword... aware as always that there are many possibilities but the transition from long Yemeni hilt (and or blade) and prior to that Ottoman hilt (and or blade) to long Omani Hilt (and or blade) seems plausible.

However, I hope I'm not wasting too much ink !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.