The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

I saw your post with images - can't say I see the Mamluk connection. The image you shows are dramatically different blade profiles from a very different time period than the point in time when the straight sayf was likely being introduced.

Regarding size, blade length is effected by hilting, including rehilting. Most straight sayf fall within 27-33 inches are so for blade length. I've seen plenty of images of sayf with similar triple fuller layouts, plenty with single fuller layouts...

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ I think the two (Yemeni Ottoman)are hugely similar in the hilt... not the blade so much. I think the Yemeni version has a much less expensive blade ... almost a utility mass produced type.

I think the Omani dancing sword is very similar to the Yemeni variant in all respects except flex..



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~ I think the two (Yemeni Ottoman)are hugely similar in the hilt... not the blade so much. I think the Yemeni version has a much less expensive blade ... almost a utility mass produced type.

I think the Omani dancing sword is very similar to the Yemeni variant in all respects except flex..



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim, the hilt comparison is fair enough and your point about blades is of course a nice way of saying why Euro trade blades were popular for these - utilitarian and mass produced. See my points in a previous post about why Euro trade blades had big uptake globally.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim, the hilt comparison is fair enough and your point about blades is of course a nice way of saying why Euro trade blades were popular for these - utilitarian and mass produced. See my points in a previous post about why Euro trade blades had big uptake globally.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~Yes all very interesting... but can you envisage Yemen under intense Ottoman control/ influence previously... taking blades off Europe for these swords when they had a perfectly reasonable sword manufacturing base in the Hadramaut?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~Yes all very interesting... but can you envisage Yemen under intense Ottoman control/ influence previously... taking blades off Europe for these swords when they had a perfectly reasonable sword manufacturing base in the Hadramaut?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

As always, it relates to cost and quality. Did Hadramaut have water driven hammers? One of the main reasons behind the economical production of blades in Solingen from a fairly early period... The ability to produce quality blades locally isn't necessarily an indication they could be produced cheaply or in a competitive volume.

By the 16th century Solingen was already making use of water driven mechanical hammers to increase the production of blade blanks. This was unusual in Europe at the time and as far as I know was not an industrial technique common in the Ottoman empire or Yemen... This industrialization only increased with time. I would also point out, to my understanding the Ottomans lost control of Yemen in the mid 17th century (principally Sana'a)?

Mechanical production of blade blanks increased production time about 5-6x over hand forging.

Solingen was the force it was because of the industrial tools they employed - allowing for a competitive edge, even when long distance transportation was factored in.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

As always, it relates to cost and quality. Did Hadramaut have water driven hammers? One of the main reasons behind the economical production of blades in Solingen from a fairly early period... The ability to produce quality blades locally isn't necessarily an indication they could be produced cheaply or in a competitive volume.

By the 16th century Solingen was already making use of water driven mechanical hammers to increase the production of blade blanks. This was unusual in Europe at the time and as far as I know was not an industrial technique common in the Ottoman empire or Yemen... This industrialization only increased with time. I would also point out, to my understanding the Ottomans lost control of Yemen in the mid 17th century (principally Sana'a)?

Mechanical production of blade blanks increased production time about 5-6x over hand forging.

Solingen was the force it was because of the industrial tools they employed - allowing for a competitive edge, even when long distance transportation was factored in.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain.. Its odd but I was thinking about water hammers and if the Hadramaut had them. I will try to delve into that. Normally I would simply go and have a look but as you know its not possible. Further to that... looking at the Yemeni blades they just dont look like European blades. They do look mildly Red Sea perhaps from Turkish sources. However that is slightly off centre since we are actually looking at where were the early Omani Sayf dancing "blades" made (other than in Oman) . More as it unfolds.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain.. Its odd but I was thinking about water hammers and if the Hadramaut had them. I will try to delve into that. Normally I would simply go and have a look but as you know its not possible. Further to that... looking at the Yemeni blades they just dont look like European blades. They do look mildly Red Sea perhaps from Turkish sources. However that is slightly off centre since we are actually looking at where were the early Omani Sayf dancing "blades" made (other than in Oman) . More as it unfolds.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

This is a point where we will just have to disagree - the Yemeni blades, or blades found in Yemeni hilts to be more precise - do look European or often are European. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on that point. I'm rather curious what Turkish blades you think have that profile, a deep single fuller and are from that period... Anyways, that's perhaps a topic for another time.

As always, I'll be interested what you find in the museums, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of a "smoking gun" one way or the other.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

This is a point where we will just have to disagree - the Yemeni blades, or blades found in Yemeni hilts to be more precise - do look European or often are European. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on that point. I'm rather curious what Turkish blades you think have that profile, a deep single fuller and are from that period... Anyways, that's perhaps a topic for another time.

As always, I'll be interested what you find in the museums, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of a "smoking gun" one way or the other.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain... European blades certainly did get fitted up to Yemeni hilts absolutely agreed but not (I suspect) the type of straight, broad, virtually nonflexing long Yemeni blades on the foto below. I think these are Ottoman linked. I have pushed onto pictures below(not in order) all the steps between the Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni and Omani swords which makes it clear where my line of enquiry is going...to the museums!!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi