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20th February 2013, 03:31 PM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Quote:
Salaams Atlantia ~ Yes well... I would hate to do the post mortem on this one ! It could be Portuguese, German, Red Sea or as you say Omani and the pommel is certainly of the latter type. I dont know what conditions it was stored in but it looks like it has had a rough time ..wet, damp conditions over 100 years can be very agressive. The hilt is extended with tang...single broad fuller. The usual method of production for Omani Sayfs was tang and blade as one piece thus this is likely to be a conversion. The debate is on as to whether there is such a thing as a European Trade blade viz a viz Omani Sayfs.. Omani Straight dancing swords. Please feel free to join this debate on The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16795 Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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20th February 2013, 05:18 PM
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#2 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Quote:
Sup Ibrahiim, The relic sword is surely an example of a trade blade used in a Kattara? I wouldn't get too caught up on the Kaskara attribution simply because that's where we see this kind of blade most commonly. To conclude that this blade started out IN a Kaskara seems like a bit of a stretch to me. My limited experience of de-hilted Kaskara with a European blade (one that I owned many years ago) is that it also had a short tang with a single hole which appeared to be how it had been supplied from it's source in Europe and not locally cut down. To illustrate this I add a picture from this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8269 Showing a trade blade with a seemingly original short tang the same as the one that I previously owned and the relic example above. I would suggest that the logical assumption was that these were being traded en-masse to whoever wanted them and that while many ended up as Kaskara, some also ended up as Mandinka swords, Takouba and Kattara. Unless someone can say with certainty that the trade blades were supplied with conventional long tangs and ONLY shortened 'in theatre' as they were being made into Kaskara? Regards Gene |
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20th February 2013, 05:40 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Salaams Atlanta... Just to remind you that you are on the Omani Shamshiir thread and better perhaps to be on the Omani Sayf thread...The Straight Omani Sayf; but to continue...well it would take some science to prove thats an Omani blade but ok lets say its an Omani Straight Sayf.
I didnt mention Kaskara? The blade you add is a trade blade and I put it to forum that no Omani Straight Sayfs originate from those..I have tentatively agreed that there mmay be some inclusion of form taken from the fullers designs but no more. They made their own or got them from somewhere else... India or Yemen possibly? Kindly consider bringing the question onto the right thread...  Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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20th February 2013, 06:06 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Quote:
Namaste Ibrahiim, Yeah, I don't really want to get into the whole Kattara/Saif, flexi/stiff, dancing/combat debate. I've got plans for the next year.... or two  With the relic blade above, I thought you suggested in the original thread that it was a reused Kaskara blade, but I have to admit that I did lose the will to live about 6 or 7 pages into that thread so I could easily be misquoting your meaning. I'm not sure how you're explaining this blade any other way than how I suggest, but if you don't want to continue to discuss it within this 'Omanicised Shamshir' thread  then no problem. I don't want to derail this thread and turn it into another debate on Kattara.So back to Shamshir it is! Regards Gene |
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20th February 2013, 06:18 PM
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#5 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
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Quote:
Salaams Atlantia ~ I will discus anything anywhere but as you point out the Kattara for comments was a bit big... thats why I've hived off the different forms (theres only 4)of Omani swords... all very different as you know. That way you can dip into each specific type without going in through "War and Peace" and the 300 posts plus ~ which are all very meaningful and full of important detail...I have to add that because I wrote most of it. Anyway 17,000 hits aint at all bad. No really! it would enhance that thread to have your comments on it... after all if a research student is looking at Omani Sayfs he wouldn't really find your excellent input here so why not join the debate over on Omani Sayfs ?  Here it is...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16795 Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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20th February 2013, 06:33 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Quote:
But I'll stick to the Shamshir
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20th February 2013, 11:20 PM
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#7 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,189
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Absolutely brilliant discourse you guys! I really like this...keeping a sense of humor even in conflict, and both working to keep the thread on track!!
Thank you both! |
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20th February 2013, 05:45 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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I've not really got anything else to add Ibrahiim Kattara aren't really my bag (at all) and Iain is certainly the chap to talk Takouba, Kaskara and trade blades of this type as well I would imagine! |
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