Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim......Re the silver collar. Not likely to have been part of the scabbard as it is far too small to fit. It does however fit snugly onto the hilt.

Iain..... Your comment re the blade is noted and I intend to leave it as is.
The hilt is still an open book, but I believe that there was originally a leather?? covering of some sort. Even then the hilt would be quite thin to grip, BUT....we are perhaps missing something here.
I use as an example, 19th Century British Military Uniforms, which, for the 20th/21st c man are far too small to wear, or even in some cases to put on. Obviously the "modern" man is of bigger stature, so it would be reasonable to assume, also has much larger hands than the 19th c "version". That being the case, maybe the hilt is NOT too small after all. I do not have evidence of Arabian stature in the 19th c, but I do know that modern Asian races are considerably smaller than the average European, and have MUCH smaller hands.
Perhaps this is the answer??
Stu

[Iain]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim......Re the silver collar. Not likely to have been part of the scabbard as it is far too small to fit. It does however fit snugly onto the hilt.

Iain..... Your comment re the blade is noted and I intend to leave it as is.
The hilt is still an open book, but I believe that there was originally a leather?? covering of some sort. Even then the hilt would be quite thin to grip, BUT....we are perhaps missing something here.
I use as an example, 19th Century British Military Uniforms, which, for the 20th/21st c man are far too small to wear, or even in some cases to put on. Obviously the "modern" man is of bigger stature, so it would be reasonable to assume, also has much larger hands than the 19th c "version". That being the case, maybe the hilt is NOT too small after all. I do not have evidence of Arabian stature in the 19th c, but I do know that modern Asian races are considerably smaller than the average European, and have MUCH smaller hands.
Perhaps this is the answer??
Stu

Hi Stu,

Makes sense. I was wondering not just about the size but the balance. Perhaps its just a trick of the photos but the balance looks like it would be very forward of the guard? Of course I always figure that ethnographic weapons that feel awkward usually just means we don't know how to hold them right!
No doubt the users of the period had no issues!

[Richard G]

Hello Khanjar 1,

This is all very intriguing, I have been interested in Arabian weapons for many years and can't really remember seeing a "SwedeGreen" type until this post, yet Ibrahim says South Arabia is awash with them!

I offer the following observations or speculations, some of which I realise are contradictory;-

1, The drag on your scabbard could be from a hyena. Bertram Thomas describes shooting them in the Qarra mountains.
2, When I first saw SwedeGreen's swords I wondered how the hits were made; presumably from sheets of steel or iron, rather than drawn out from an ingot, and I imagine the seams where the hilt is attached to the "block" would be difficult to do on an anvil and would require some form of welding. i.e a type of hilt that could only be relatively modern.
3, When I saw your sword I wondered whether or not these iron or steel hilts were originally covered overall in silver, (like the hilt in the Wallace collection and this one. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...pons-and-armour ) which has since been stripped off. If this were so it would answer a lot of questions. This speculation could apply to all these iron hilted swords.
4, Thus the decoration on your sword could have been made after the original silver was removed and the collar on your sword, an old, half-hearted attempt to restore it's former glory.

Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Hello Khanjar 1,

This is all very intriguing, I have been interested in Arabian weapons for many years and can't really remember seeing a "SwedeGreen" type until this post, yet Ibrahim says South Arabia is awash with them!

I offer the following observations or speculations, some of which I realise are contradictory;-

1, The drag on your scabbard could be from a hyena. Bertram Thomas describes shooting them in the Qarra mountains.
2, When I first saw SwedeGreen's swords I wondered how the hits were made; presumably from sheets of steel or iron, rather than drawn out from an ingot, and I imagine the seams where the hilt is attached to the "block" would be difficult to do on an anvil and would require some form of welding. i.e a type of hilt that could only be relatively modern.
3, When I saw your sword I wondered whether or not these iron or steel hilts were originally covered overall in silver, (like the hilt in the Wallace collection and this one. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...pons-and-armour ) which has since been stripped off. If this were so it would answer a lot of questions. This speculation could apply to all these iron hilted swords.
4, Thus the decoration on your sword could have bee made after the original silver was removed and the collar on your sword, an old, half-hearted attempt to restore it's further glory.

Regards
Richard

Salaams Richard~ Can you point me to the quote where I said that?... I may have said the Souk in Muttrah is awash with them because it is... but I dont think I said South Arabia.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Sorry Ibrahiim,
I agree you did not say South Arabia was "awash" with them. But you did say there were dozens in the Muscat soukhs and they were common in Sanaa. This was an attempt to paraphase with exaggeration to highlight my surprise at finding these are quite common.
Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Sorry Ibrahiim,
I agree you did not say South Arabia was "awash" with them. But you did say there were dozens in the Muscat soukhs and they were common in Sanaa. This was an attempt to paraphase with exaggeration to highlight my surprise at finding these are quite common.
Regards
Richard

Salaams Richard G... Ah that was the souk in Muttrah ... I had about 20 of them lined up there but couldnt decide to take any but they told me they had got them in Sanaa...or through a Sanaa trader. The project weapon indeed looks like its got Hyena wrapped about the base. I dont know enough about these scabbards and to what extent the strange collar is original but it may be... I just cant imagine going in to bat with a soft silver content sleeve as an extension of the iron cuff... I remain puzzled about that .
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Richard G... Ah that was the souk in Muttrah ... I had about 20 of them lined up there but couldnt decide to take any but they told me they had got them in Sanaa...or through a Sanaa trader. The project weapon indeed looks like its got Hyena wrapped about the base. I dont know enough about these scabbards and to what extent the strange collar is original but it may be... I just cant imagine going in to bat with a soft silver content sleeve as an extension of the iron cuff... I remain puzzled about that .
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim. I agree with your comment about the silver collar being fragile in combat, but we are of course assuming that it was always there. My thinking is that it was possibly added later, perhaps to embellish the sword for dress wear rather than combat use. Either way, it obviously belongs to the particlar hilt, as it fits snugly. As you will be aware, many swords are "dressed up" so that they look impressive when worn.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Hello Khanjar 1,

This is all very intriguing, I have been interested in Arabian weapons for many years and can't really remember seeing a "SwedeGreen" type until this post, yet Ibrahim says South Arabia is awash with them!

I offer the following observations or speculations, some of which I realise are contradictory;-

1, The drag on your scabbard could be from a hyena. Bertram Thomas describes shooting them in the Qarra mountains.
2, When I first saw SwedeGreen's swords I wondered how the hits were made; presumably from sheets of steel or iron, rather than drawn out from an ingot, and I imagine the seams where the hilt is attached to the "block" would be difficult to do on an anvil and would require some form of welding. i.e a type of hilt that could only be relatively modern.
3, When I saw your sword I wondered whether or not these iron or steel hilts were originally covered overall in silver, (like the hilt in the Wallace collection and this one. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...pons-and-armour ) which has since been stripped off. If this were so it would answer a lot of questions. This speculation could apply to all these iron hilted swords.
4, Thus the decoration on your sword could have been made after the original silver was removed and the collar on your sword, an old, half-hearted attempt to restore it's former glory.

Regards
Richard

Hi Richard,
1>The drag COULD be Hyena, but I am no expert on skins so that will have to remain unknown for now.
2>Welding has been around for centuries----blacksmith forges etc. My guess is hot metal beaten over a wooden core. NO SIGN OF MODERN TYPE WELDING.
3>Not likely I suspect though obviously one can not be certain.......
4>Doubt it very much...I personally think these are NOT swords of the rich, but probably of lower classes.....I would bet the decoration was always there. Even though none appears on Swedegreens swords, it does on some of those shown by others in this thread.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Stu,

Makes sense. I was wondering not just about the size but the balance. Perhaps its just a trick of the photos but the balance looks like it would be very forward of the guard? Of course I always figure that ethnographic weapons that feel awkward usually just means we don't know how to hold them right!
No doubt the users of the period had no issues!

Sorry Iain, Missed that bit about balance. Anyway the point of balance is 4" below the silver collar,.....11" from the MIDDLE of the grip. The balance point is close to that of other swords I have....within about 1 1/2".
Stu

[Iain]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Sorry Iain, Missed that bit about balance. Anyway the point of balance is 4" below the silver collar,.....11" from the MIDDLE of the grip. The balance point is close to that of other swords I have....within about 1 1/2".
Stu

Hi Stu, thanks, exactly what I wanted to know. Seems really far out, but if its consistent with others it must have simply been the norm for this type.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim......Re the silver collar. Not likely to have been part of the scabbard as it is far too small to fit. It does however fit snugly onto the hilt.

Iain..... Your comment re the blade is noted and I intend to leave it as is.
The hilt is still an open book, but I believe that there was originally a leather?? covering of some sort. Even then the hilt would be quite thin to grip, BUT....we are perhaps missing something here.
I use as an example, 19th Century British Military Uniforms, which, for the 20th/21st c man are far too small to wear, or even in some cases to put on. Obviously the "modern" man is of bigger stature, so it would be reasonable to assume, also has much larger hands than the 19th c "version". That being the case, maybe the hilt is NOT too small after all. I do not have evidence of Arabian stature in the 19th c, but I do know that modern Asian races are considerably smaller than the average European, and have MUCH smaller hands.
Perhaps this is the answer??
Stu

Salaams Khanjar 1. I think the Omanis and Yemenis were very small except in the case of the big fishermen and those of African stock. There is even a region in Oman which was famous for giants. (Bahla)

In terms of a leather wrap I suggest that it could be done in such a way that it forms a conical grip..which may indicate the potential link as the origin of both the Omani long hilts.

There is no way that I can see the hilt remaining metal because Iron attracts evil... and the grip would be useless. Wrapped in leather; not a problem as the grip would be solid, firm, strengthen the hilt and cover the iron.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.