Another Balinese Ceremonial Knife...with questions...

CharlesS · 29th September 2005, 02:24 AM

Here is another Balinese ceremonial dagger, similar to the ones discussed in a previous post, but since that post became one primarily about nomenclature, I decided to post this one separately.

I am curious if any of the the forumites know exactly what this dagger was used for, or was it a weapon of status. This one is surely usable in every regard, with a thick heavy blade, and a very sturdy build.

The 'wedung' of Java was originally used as a weapon or tool...eventually it evolved into a status symbol, and I am just wondering if these Bali types might have a similar history??

Battara · 29th September 2005, 08:14 AM

AAAHHHH!

Now that's a nice ceremonial puppy (woof

).

Mick · 29th September 2005, 05:01 PM

CharlesS

I've seen them used by the Balinese Brahman priest in the cremation ceremony during the opening of the bull and the insertion of the remains of the person to be cremated.

Rick · 29th September 2005, 05:50 PM

Charles , is that a metal plate or a wooden insert / inlay that we see where the blade enters the scabbard ?

VVV · 29th September 2005, 06:38 PM

Hi Charles,

I was waiting for some of our Indonesian forumites to comment your ceremonial knife before responding. But because it's late now in Indonesia I guess they will respond tomorrow instead?

Below is a related Balinese ceremonial knife (see pict) that is not as beautiful as yours but double the size (If you can't compete with good looks...).

This isn't pictured in any reference books that I am aware of so I have made some research, that I hope to get confirmed or corrected by other forumites, on the ceremonial use of this knife ( I guess the use is the same for yours?)

When a high caste Balinese dies there is a procession where the corpse is carried on a high, decorated, construction when travelling to the temple. In front of the procession two "soul guards" are walking with one ceremonial weapon each. The one at the left is carrying a Tombak in both his hands held at his head level. The one at the right is carrying a ceremonial knife like mine (and probably like yours?) at his head level, also with both hands.
The hilt of the knife is connected with the corpse by a long textile ribbon.

I hope I got this correct and look forward for the more knowledgeable from the cultures response.

Michael

CharlesS · 29th September 2005, 09:26 PM

Thanks all.

Rick, there is no insert around the mouth of the scabbard; it is all just part of the carved wood scabbard.

purwacarita · 30th September 2005, 01:33 PM

Yes, it is a knife used for ceremonial tools and/or daily tools (we like to use tools modern tools made in china nowadays

). The blade declares the 4th stage in life, oldness, where keris represents 3 stages of life. The owner must give away their keris before given this blade as a symbol that they must leave behind worldly life and start focus spiritual life. I think mine is 2 edges sharp, perhaps it is other interpretation.

Javanese also have this kind of blade called bethak, but I don't know if it has the same purpose.

~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani

Rick · 30th September 2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Thanks all.

Rick, there is no insert around the mouth of the scabbard; it is all just part of the carved wood scabbard.

Gotcha Charles . just an area that was left uncarved .
Thanks for the reply .

Mick · 30th September 2005, 07:09 PM

I have some (somewhat faded) pictures of a cremation ceremony back in 1976 for you who haven't seen one. I can load them here if you wish to see them. They are from a good vantage point which most people who have been to one do not get. (You are normally packed into a crowd of a thousand or so.)

They are not specifically pictures of weapons so I hesitate to point them up without a request. There are about 10 pictures covering the start of the procession from the village to the firing of the material at the cremation point.

Let me know if you wish to see them.

Henk · 30th September 2005, 08:08 PM

CharlesS,

That's a very fine one. Looks very good. Lovely!!

Mick · 1st October 2005, 03:46 PM

This is the point during the ceremony that I have seen the knife used.

Tim Simmons · 1st October 2005, 03:51 PM

Fantastic, I can feel the glow. Tim

29th September 2005, 02:24 AM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Another Balinese Ceremonial Knife...with questions... Here is another Balinese ceremonial dagger, similar to the ones discussed in a previous post, but since that post became one primarily about nomenclature, I decided to post this one separately. I am curious if any of the the forumites know exactly what this dagger was used for, or was it a weapon of status. This one is surely usable in every regard, with a thick heavy blade, and a very sturdy build. The 'wedung' of Java was originally used as a weapon or tool...eventually it evolved into a status symbol, and I am just wondering if these Bali types might have a similar history?? Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 29th September 2005 at 02:30 AM. Reason: spelling error

29th September 2005, 05:50 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	5th Picture Down Charles , is that a metal plate or a wooden insert / inlay that we see where the blade enters the scabbard ?

29th September 2005, 06:38 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Charles, I was waiting for some of our Indonesian forumites to comment your ceremonial knife before responding. But because it's late now in Indonesia I guess they will respond tomorrow instead? Below is a related Balinese ceremonial knife (see pict) that is not as beautiful as yours but double the size (If you can't compete with good looks...). This isn't pictured in any reference books that I am aware of so I have made some research, that I hope to get confirmed or corrected by other forumites, on the ceremonial use of this knife ( I guess the use is the same for yours?) When a high caste Balinese dies there is a procession where the corpse is carried on a high, decorated, construction when travelling to the temple. In front of the procession two "soul guards" are walking with one ceremonial weapon each. The one at the left is carrying a Tombak in both his hands held at his head level. The one at the right is carrying a ceremonial knife like mine (and probably like yours?) at his head level, also with both hands. The hilt of the knife is connected with the corpse by a long textile ribbon. I hope I got this correct and look forward for the more knowledgeable from the cultures response. Michael Attached Images

1st October 2005, 03:46 PM	#11
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	This is the point during the ceremony that I have seen the knife used. Attached Images

29th September 2005, 08:14 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	AAAHHHH! Now that's a nice ceremonial puppy (woof ).

29th September 2005, 05:01 PM	#3
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	CharlesS I've seen them used by the Balinese Brahman priest in the cremation ceremony during the opening of the bull and the insertion of the remains of the person to be cremated.

29th September 2005, 09:26 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Thanks all. Rick, there is no insert around the mouth of the scabbard; it is all just part of the carved wood scabbard.

30th September 2005, 01:33 PM	#7
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Yes, it is a knife used for ceremonial tools and/or daily tools (we like to use tools modern tools made in china nowadays ). The blade declares the 4th stage in life, oldness, where keris represents 3 stages of life. The owner must give away their keris before given this blade as a symbol that they must leave behind worldly life and start focus spiritual life. I think mine is 2 edges sharp, perhaps it is other interpretation. Javanese also have this kind of blade called bethak, but I don't know if it has the same purpose. ~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani

30th September 2005, 07:09 PM	#9
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	I have some (somewhat faded) pictures of a cremation ceremony back in 1976 for you who haven't seen one. I can load them here if you wish to see them. They are from a good vantage point which most people who have been to one do not get. (You are normally packed into a crowd of a thousand or so.) They are not specifically pictures of weapons so I hesitate to point them up without a request. There are about 10 pictures covering the start of the procession from the village to the firing of the material at the cremation point. Let me know if you wish to see them.

30th September 2005, 08:08 PM	#10
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	CharlesS, That's a very fine one. Looks very good. Lovely!!

1st October 2005, 03:51 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Fantastic, I can feel the glow. Tim