Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Stupid question time.

There is far too much repitition within this thread and those referred to for me to stay focused.

The long hilted Omani sword, of the type pictured is only a dance sword?

Regards

Gavin

Salaams good point I have just tried to right that but as you can see these paths cross and are at times entwined nevertheless Ive tried to clarify the issue on the other thread...The Omani Battle Sword deals with that sword and Kattara for comment with Omani Sayf and Kattara... Im sure it will all balance out... just keep an eye on everything !! ha!

On your question yes its only a dancing sword. An Omani Sayf. Now that one is dealt with in much detail on Kattara for comments.

You will note that this thread is neither but deals partly with the long hilt and the possible influence of what looks like at #1 a Yemeni / Ottoman / Mamluke / Abassiid variant on your Omani swords long hilt. Yours being the Straight Omani Sayf; The Dancing Sword. (See what I mean? slightly confusing)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams good point I have just tried to right that but as you can see these paths cross and are at times entwined nevertheless Ive tried to clarify the issue on the other thread...The Omani Battle Sword deals with that sword and Kattara for Comment with that and the Omani Sayf and Kattara... Im sure it will all balance out... just keep an eye on everything !! ha!

On your question yes its only a dancing sword. Now that one is dealt with in much detail on Kattara for comments.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

This original untouched example I have presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword.

I would suggest your post in original TVV Kattara thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 of the same thread is not it's sole purpose but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

This original untouched example I have presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword.

I would suggest your post in original TVV Kattara thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 of the same thread is not it's sole purpose but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin

Salaams Gavin Last point first ~ The old ones werent flexible... what is notable about the massive gap in time is how a simple technology like a battle Sword stood the vast time test. I suggest that the flexible sword only arrived in about 1744 (the beginning of the al busaiid dynasty) and as a pageantry sword only. I don't altogether disagree with your assessment with some of the dodgey 19th century reports dotted about from authors like Burton etc but Ingrams was firmly planted... He spent years in Zanzibar and new his turf like the back of his hand and later went on to the Hadramaut and did sterling work. Of all the scholarly observers I believe he is one of the finest. He spent decades studying the situation not as a visitor but as a fixture and fitting..
I hope the new layout of each sword having its own thread works better..

Please look again at the Tipu Tip sword... Its a massive curved Kattara.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Gavin Last point first ~ The old ones werent flexible... what is notable about the massive gap in time is how a simple technology like a battle Sword stood the vast time test. I suggest that the flexible sword only arrived in about 1744 (the beginning of the al busaiid dynasty) and as a pageantry sword only. I don't altogether disagree with your assessment with some of the dodgey 19th century reports dotted about from authors like Burton etc but Ingrams was firmly planted... He spent years in Zanzibar and new his turf like the back of his hand and later went on to the Hadramaut and did sterling work. Of all the scholarly observers I believe he is one of the finest. He spent decades studying the situation not as a visitor but as a fixture and fitting..
I hope the new layout of each sword having its own thread works better..

Please look again at the Tipu Tip sword... Its a massive curved Kattara.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

Not holding any author current or past at fault as they often have more time and want than most but Ingrams make one small single passge in passing with no other great attention to any detail about the swords he saw or any other reference to the swords from the regions applications in fighting. Because he did not write of fighting which he may not have ben exposed to or didn't want to write about should not be grounds for absolute reasoning that these swords were in the day just dance swords.

By his own admission it reached chaotic frantic levels and it is distinctly possible there were also curved swords being used in the dance fray, possiblely just most mentioned because the straight sword was so common and worn by many that a curved one were and there was overlooked.

Please see my views in your new threads on curved vs straight.

Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Ibrahiim,

Not holding any author current or past at fault as they often have more time and want than most but Ingrams make one small single passge in passing with no other great attention to any detail about the swords he saw or any other reference to the swords from the regions applications in fighting. Because he did not write of fighting which he may not have ben exposed to or didn't want to write about should not be grounds for absolute reasoning that these swords were in the day just dance swords.

By his own admission it reached chaotic frantic levels and it is distinctly possible there were also curved swords being used in the dance fray, possiblely just most mentioned because the straight sword was so common and worn by many that a curved one were and there was overlooked.

Please see my views in your new threads on curved vs straight.

Regards

Gavin

Salaams Gavin... Cant add much to that... I have disagreed with most reports by most Europeans but Ingram to me was solid and as Secretary to the Zanzibar Ruler I found his reports accurate and interesting especially on his note about the difference between Omani and Zanzibaris dancing with weapons etc... I have no doubt that curved weapons were used for absolute sure they were..as they are also used today... Its just that the straight Omani Sayf has never been in a fight because it is the traditional dancing sword.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Gavin... Cant add much to that... I have disagreed with most reports by most Europeans but Ingram to me was solid and as Secretary to the Zanzibar Ruler I found his reports accurate and interesting especially on his note about the difference between Omani and Zanzibaris dancing with weapons etc... I have no doubt that curved weapons were used for absolute sure they were..as they are also used today... Its just that the straight Omani Sayf has never been in a fight because it is the traditional dancing sword.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Dear Ibrahiim,

I must continue to probe, it is the essence of learning and seeking truth. I ask, but why is the modern straight sword as it is seen today the traditional dancing sword, how did it become so.

Is it because the modern traditional dancing sword today is a tribute to the straight sword of forefathers who used it for not only fighting but in dance in which skills were honed, skills honoured and a ritual bonding with brothers was made... This is where time has passed with nothing yet found recorded about why the straight sword was chosen for using in dance in the modern age we live in.
I suggest because the straight sword in the dress discussed was the common but important fighting sword of the day being flexible or not, used in dance and combat but not isolated to either. This I feel is why it become the ritual dance item today....But still lots more work is required and you are progressing the study along with avenues open for others to present known research on the subject.

Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Dear Ibrahiim,

I must continue to probe, it is the essence of learning and seeking truth. I ask, but why is the modern straight sword as it is seen today the traditional dancing sword, how did it become so.

Is it because the modern traditional dancing sword today is a tribute to the straight sword of forefathers who used it for not only fighting but in dance in which skills were honed, skills honoured and a ritual bonding with brothers was made... This is where time has passed with nothing yet found recorded about why the straight sword was chosen for using in dance in the modern age we live in.
I suggest because the straight sword in the dress discussed was the common but important fighting sword of the day being flexible or not, used in dance and combat but not isolated to either. This I feel is why it become the ritual dance item today....But still lots more work is required and you are progressing the study along with avenues open for others to present known research on the subject.

Regards

Gavin

Salaams Gavin. I believe it developed as a style from the Old Battle Sword which I have compared its general design with. In both cases, essentially, a two edged, straight, sharp, spatulate tipped blade and with a hilt in the Islamic arch shape. To assign the Terrs Buckler Shield was simply an extension of the honorary nature of the pageantry sword... relating it further to the tradition in the sword dance; The Razha within the Funoon Genre of sword dance, mimic contest, music and poetry and handed down from day 1. (751 ad)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.