Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Just came across this pic in my archives while looking for something else. It shows an Omani Battle Sword with what definitely appears to be a wrapped hilt covering rather than a "fitted" one. Unfortunately I can not remember the source of this pic, which was archived in April 2010, but it clearly puts a different (or at least alternative) light on how things were finished in terms of metal hilts.

Salaams kahnjar1 ~There are several ways to wrap a hilt. It can be simply wrapped round and round like the one in your photo or as one piece or woven rather in a zig zag better described as platted wrap. I note that the haphazzard way in which the sword wrapping is presented could mean that this is a random repair thus not an original form of wrap..

Interestingly on the Omani Battle Sword there are 3 holes (2 for rivvets) the top hole near the pommel is for a wrist strap. The strap anchor hole on this sword seems to be covered.

What is also important in your picture is the silver inlay script on the pommel... not on all swords... but it is thought on some perhaps to glorify a particular event/battle, a religious incantation, or to add/display the power and rank of the owner.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

You say that the "wrist strap hole" of this particular hilt is covered. I note that all three of the refinished hilts you show in your pics, and no doubt done in your workshop, also have the wrist strap hole covered, if indeed there was one there in the first place. The bare hilts you show in various pics you have posted, do not indicate holes either..........
Clarification please.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

You say that the "wrist strap hole" of this particular hilt is covered. I note that all three of the refinished hilts you show in your pics, and no doubt done in your workshop, also have the wrist strap hole covered, if indeed there was one there in the first place. The bare hilts you show in various pics you have posted, do not indicate holes either..........
Clarification please.

Clarification ~ No not quite.
If you can see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 all of the pictures of my Omani Battle Swords have wrist strap holes. The covered hilts that are fully covered havent had a hole bored in the leather as yet...except the centre one which in fact has a cotter pin in the top hole...which was in the original but may have been added by the previous owner. Invariably this top hole is about quarter of an inch from the pommel. Interestingly there is also a cotter pin in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 at #9 which is a Mamluke variant similar to the style that I compared the Omani Battle Sword to in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

The hilts are not done in my workshops but are in pretty well natural as found condition with the rust removed...and with the core of wood replaced since the existing ones were rotted out. We used the original rivvets where possible.

The only additions are the leather work. Of course, we take pride in getting the detail right which is why we observe the museum items carefully first, thus, we would never recommend this to amateurs.

We also have a number of swords actually in museums.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Stupid question time.

There is far too much repitition within this thread and those referred to for me to stay focused.

The long hilted Omani sword, of the type pictured is only a dance sword?

Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Stupid question time.

There is far too much repitition within this thread and those referred to for me to stay focused.

The long hilted Omani sword, of the type pictured is only a dance sword?

Regards

Gavin

Salaams good point I have just tried to right that but as you can see these paths cross and are at times entwined nevertheless Ive tried to clarify the issue on the other thread...The Omani Battle Sword deals with that sword and Kattara for comment with Omani Sayf and Kattara... Im sure it will all balance out... just keep an eye on everything !! ha!

On your question yes its only a dancing sword. An Omani Sayf. Now that one is dealt with in much detail on Kattara for comments.

You will note that this thread is neither but deals partly with the long hilt and the possible influence of what looks like at #1 a Yemeni / Ottoman / Mamluke / Abassiid variant on your Omani swords long hilt. Yours being the Straight Omani Sayf; The Dancing Sword. (See what I mean? slightly confusing)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams good point I have just tried to right that but as you can see these paths cross and are at times entwined nevertheless Ive tried to clarify the issue on the other thread...The Omani Battle Sword deals with that sword and Kattara for Comment with that and the Omani Sayf and Kattara... Im sure it will all balance out... just keep an eye on everything !! ha!

On your question yes its only a dancing sword. Now that one is dealt with in much detail on Kattara for comments.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

This original untouched example I have presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword.

I would suggest your post in original TVV Kattara thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 of the same thread is not it's sole purpose but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

This original untouched example I have presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword.

I would suggest your post in original TVV Kattara thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 of the same thread is not it's sole purpose but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin

Salaams Gavin Last point first ~ The old ones werent flexible... what is notable about the massive gap in time is how a simple technology like a battle Sword stood the vast time test. I suggest that the flexible sword only arrived in about 1744 (the beginning of the al busaiid dynasty) and as a pageantry sword only. I don't altogether disagree with your assessment with some of the dodgey 19th century reports dotted about from authors like Burton etc but Ingrams was firmly planted... He spent years in Zanzibar and new his turf like the back of his hand and later went on to the Hadramaut and did sterling work. Of all the scholarly observers I believe he is one of the finest. He spent decades studying the situation not as a visitor but as a fixture and fitting..
I hope the new layout of each sword having its own thread works better..

Please look again at the Tipu Tip sword... Its a massive curved Kattara.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.