Greetings and Question from Newcomer Walaya

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The important thing for us to understand when we consider the esoteric powers associated with the keris is that for those people who are a part of the society that practices the relevant belief system, in this case, Kejawen, or Javanese Islam, those esoteric powers are real. They are not imagined powers, they are not artificial creations, they are real:- as real as the indisputable fact that one is being observed by one's ancestors and as real as the indisputable fact that the cosmos is not simply a place of a single dimension but has a component which can be readily seen, and a component which cannot be readily seen, but which under some circumstances may be visited, and which can certainly impact upon the part of the cosmos which can be seen. I feel that most of us here have heard of the "seen and the unseen worlds". Well, this is what it means, and its real, for those who live within this system of belief.

Just to clarify, i completely agree with you here Alan, and i trust your post was not a direct response to something i said. My recommendation of taking certain bits of lore with a "grain of salt" was not a dismissal of keris esoterica or the mystical beliefs surrounding it as anyone who knows me would understand. My own world view is steeped in esoterica. It does seem, however, that in recent times many stories have been amplified or even created out of the blue to add more intrigue and mystery to the keris. The use of Mayit (corpse) as opposed to Mayat (slanted) may or may not be one of those times. I am not at all certain when we first find use of Mayit in association with this pamor. But i have seen how the morbid fascination over the "Death Pamor" has made this particular pamor one of extreme interest for certain Western collectors. Everyone loves a horror show, right? So from my perspective pushing Buntel Mayit as the proper name for this pamor seems to be a way of sparking interest in it from a commercial stand point. I could be way off base on that, but that is how i have observed discussion of this pamor among Western collectors. They are fascinated by the "danger" of it and many find it a desirable addition to their collects because of that. And so i recommend a "grain of salt", which isn't to say dismiss the notion, but simply to approach it with skepticism.

[A. G. Maisey]

No David, not targeted at you, nor your remarks, but the "grain of salt" could easily be misunderstood by somebody who is not conversant with the way in which you see things.

The keris is unique amongst edged weapons in that from a very early time in its history it was more than just a weapon, but people who have an interest in the keris very often see it as no more than a rather unusual type of dagger. At the present time there seems to be at least three approaches to the keris, one is the approach where we regard it as an art work, another where we regard it as some sort of magical talisman, and then there is its character as a weapon. Certainly, the keris can be a work of art, and certainly it is magical --- but the magic that is a part of the keris is not at all the type of magic that the vast bulk of people would understand. The magical view of the keris at the present time, in all except the most restricted communities, is a view that has been created by mankind as a blossom of imagination and misunderstanding.

In the understanding of almost anything, there are different levels of understanding. Some people understand that when you turn the key in the ignition lock of a motor vehicle the engine will start and then if they do a few other things the motor vehicle will proceed in a particular way. These people understand motor vehicles and how they work. In so far as their knowledge will permit. But then there is the understanding of the motor mechanic, the motor engineer, the designer --- and so on and so on. At each level the understanding of the motor vehicle becomes a little more detailed and complex.

Many passages in the Christian Bible have been written in a way that permits an understanding by the layman, which is sufficient to his level of knowledge and his situation, but beneath that superficial understanding there may be one or perhaps more levels of understanding that can only be accessed by the person with the knowledge to gain access.

Understanding depends upon knowledge.

Can anybody read if they do not know the letters of the alphabet? Of course not. Similarly one cannot understand anything unless the foundation knowledge is learnt first.

The keris is at its roots a weapon with a single esoteric tie to Javanese indigenous beliefs. Over the last 1000 years or so much has been added to this foundation, and much has been taken away. What we understand about the keris at this point in time is the end result of this ongoing change. But this is like anything:- if enough people believe that something is so, then of course it is so --- until such time as can be shown otherwise.

Thus it is that present understanding of the keris is not the product of knowledge, but rather the product of adherence to group belief. Modern advertising methods are very skilled in creating group belief, and these methods are a direct descendent of the methods of propaganda. The management and manipulation of a demographic. Just because a lot of people believe something, that does not make it so.

There is only one way that we can come to understand the keris, and that is by a dedicated study of the society and history of the place that gave it to the world:- Jawa.

That is a message that I have been trying to get people to accept for a very long time, but the reality is that it is simply too hard, and too time consuming for most people to seek out hard to come by publications, and then to read and analyse them. Its a lot easier to consult Dr. Google. In Dr. Google's lessons what we have is the epitome of group belief:- think about it, that is exactly the way Dr. Google works.

Anybody here involved in academia, or with academics? How many people do you know, even through to Phd candidates, who do their "research" in front of a computer screen. This starts at high school --- or before. Here in the Land of Oz children in high school now do most of their work on computers, and since this has occurred there has been an increase in completed assignments. Why? Because these children are not fools, they simply ask Dr. Google a question, cut and paste, do a shuffle with the words, and hand in their assignment. Ask them to read the printed page of a textbook and they're asleep before they get to the foot of the page. Ask them what is meant by a passage of anything and you get a garbled response that is a mix of nonsense and canned comment from an internet site.

Yes, I admit, a lot of texts and worthwhile material has now been made available online, but the vast majority of people using the net for research purposes don't go past page 3 of a search, thus what gets regurgitated in the assignments and papers is representative of group opinion. I think of this as "bottom line learning" . Its the approach where you get the greatest return in marks for the smallest amount of time invested. Accounting principles.

My feeling is that most people with a keris interest have only a very slight, superficial interest in a rather exotic physical object. There is little if any interest in what that physical object truly is.