Help Requested ID'ing Dug Axe

fernando · 29th January 2013, 10:39 PM

In my humble opinion, this has got to be something else

Wait 'til others come in with a 'bingo' revelation

Atlantia · 29th January 2013, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

In my humble opinion, this has got to be something else

Wait 'til others come in with a 'bingo' revelation

LOL, well at least I have a guess

Atlantia · 29th January 2013, 10:55 PM

Some 'ankus' are real village 'blacksmith' pieces, like these two from Timo's collection.
I'm sure the all steel axes and all types inbetween have some 'simple' examples.

Anyway, that's it for me! Apart from this half baked theory my locker is emtpy!

M ELEY · 30th January 2013, 04:53 PM

Very nice and rare find!!! Your friend isn't mistaken. This is a colonial 'halberd battle ax/tomahawk', pre-1800, as seen in Indian Tomahawks and Frontiersmen Belt Axes', page 59 (Fig 9), pg 60 (Fig 11, 12, 13), all made of a solid one piece of iron, all with top spikes and varying degrees of decoration (one piece even has the haft as a spike, allowing for a throwing implement with spikes all sides (yikes!). Several of these are in the National Museum of the American Indian.
I will be cautious with my comments, though. There are fakes out there and there are obviously look-alikes in other cultures (The rounded circular patterns we see branded into Afghan knives exactly match Inuit designs. Axes from Finland bearing brass tack decoration to the haft exactly resembles 19th c. Native American decor). The only reason I won't vote 100% on my opinion is that the examples shown in Hartzler's volume do have a back spike to the front blade. His books show other examples that don't, but they are not solid iron. This ax in general has the look of the so-called Missouri war hatchets as well as a number of spike-axes as used by the Indians, fur traders, soldiers and explorers of the time.

fernando · 30th January 2013, 05:11 PM

Great input, Mark

Tha's what i call/ed 'Bingo'

Atlantia · 30th January 2013, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Very nice and rare find!!! Your friend isn't mistaken. This is a colonial 'halberd battle ax/tomahawk', pre-1800, as seen in Indian Tomahawks and Frontiersmen Belt Axes', page 59 (Fig 9), pg 60 (Fig 11, 12, 13), all made of a solid one piece of iron, all with top spikes and varying degrees of decoration (one piece even has the haft as a spike, allowing for a throwing implement with spikes all sides (yikes!). Several of these are in the National Museum of the American Indian.
I will be cautious with my comments, though. There are fakes out there and there are obviously look-alikes in other cultures (The rounded circular patterns we see branded into Afghan knives exactly match Inuit designs. Axes from Finland bearing brass tack decoration to the haft exactly resembles 19th c. Native American decor). The only reason I won't vote 100% on my opinion is that the examples shown in Hartzler's volume do have a back spike to the front blade. His books show other examples that don't, but they are not solid iron. This ax in general has the look of the so-called Missouri war hatchets as well as a number of spike-axes as used by the Indians, fur traders, soldiers and explorers of the time.

Lets hope so! That would be a right score!!

M ELEY · 30th January 2013, 08:03 PM

Thanks for the complement, Fernando, but it was just a case of having the right books! Thanks as well, Gene, for hoping I'm right!

This is a case where provenance will greatly help the piece. If it is from a colonial dig site, perhaps there is paperwork to show this? Old photos from the dig site or an original documentation log of the piece? This is one of those situations where it would greatly increase the identity of the object, perhaps to the point where one could even identify the tribe that might have used it. Iron axes followed the settlers over and were trade items made by the French and English fur traders. Interestingly, the Spanish who superseded them were not into the trade thing. Likewise, the Dutch didn't wrangle with the Native Americans much. In any case, I bring this up because most of the Native American tomahawks were not made by them, but by the European traders themselves. Thus, you see them with rounded butts, single-bearded/double-bearded, thickened spikes, etc-i.e. A lot of artistic licence.
Chris, I hope your friend can find some provenance, as this would be a very valuable piece...

Pukka Bundook · 30th January 2013, 08:11 PM

I think M Eley might have cracked it!

I was going to reply to this thread this morning, but computer threw a fit.
And I Was going to say that it reminds me of a boathook, but shank is much too short.
Then, I thought maybe a boarding axe, as such items were weapons as well as tools.
Also wonderd vaguely about a fireman's axe...18thC or before....

But I think M Eley may have put all this idle conjecture to rest!

Richard.

laEspadaAncha · 30th January 2013, 09:08 PM

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your post (and depth of reference material!

)...

To what degree - if any - documentation exists I cannot say. As I understand it, the provenance is known but not documented, though I am not certain of this... I'll follow up on this over the next couple days and post any additional findings regarding provenance should there be any.

Also, I guess I have to address that proverbial elephant in my browser window, i.e., that damn inbox that's been full since I don't know when, and clean out a few msgs to make room for some queries I'll be sending via PM...

Gene, 'Nando, Richard, and of course Mark - thank you all...

Cheers,

Chris

29th January 2013, 10:55 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Some 'ankus' are real village 'blacksmith' pieces, like these two from Timo's collection. I'm sure the all steel axes and all types inbetween have some 'simple' examples. Anyway, that's it for me! Apart from this half baked theory my locker is emtpy! Attached Images

29th January 2013, 10:39 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In my humble opinion, this has got to be something else Wait 'til others come in with a 'bingo' revelation

30th January 2013, 04:53 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Very nice and rare find!!! Your friend isn't mistaken. This is a colonial 'halberd battle ax/tomahawk', pre-1800, as seen in Indian Tomahawks and Frontiersmen Belt Axes', page 59 (Fig 9), pg 60 (Fig 11, 12, 13), all made of a solid one piece of iron, all with top spikes and varying degrees of decoration (one piece even has the haft as a spike, allowing for a throwing implement with spikes all sides (yikes!). Several of these are in the National Museum of the American Indian. I will be cautious with my comments, though. There are fakes out there and there are obviously look-alikes in other cultures (The rounded circular patterns we see branded into Afghan knives exactly match Inuit designs. Axes from Finland bearing brass tack decoration to the haft exactly resembles 19th c. Native American decor). The only reason I won't vote 100% on my opinion is that the examples shown in Hartzler's volume do have a back spike to the front blade. His books show other examples that don't, but they are not solid iron. This ax in general has the look of the so-called Missouri war hatchets as well as a number of spike-axes as used by the Indians, fur traders, soldiers and explorers of the time.

30th January 2013, 05:11 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great input, Mark Tha's what i call/ed 'Bingo'

30th January 2013, 08:03 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks for the complement, Fernando, but it was just a case of having the right books! Thanks as well, Gene, for hoping I'm right! This is a case where provenance will greatly help the piece. If it is from a colonial dig site, perhaps there is paperwork to show this? Old photos from the dig site or an original documentation log of the piece? This is one of those situations where it would greatly increase the identity of the object, perhaps to the point where one could even identify the tribe that might have used it. Iron axes followed the settlers over and were trade items made by the French and English fur traders. Interestingly, the Spanish who superseded them were not into the trade thing. Likewise, the Dutch didn't wrangle with the Native Americans much. In any case, I bring this up because most of the Native American tomahawks were not made by them, but by the European traders themselves. Thus, you see them with rounded butts, single-bearded/double-bearded, thickened spikes, etc-i.e. A lot of artistic licence. Chris, I hope your friend can find some provenance, as this would be a very valuable piece...

30th January 2013, 08:11 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I think M Eley might have cracked it! I was going to reply to this thread this morning, but computer threw a fit. And I Was going to say that it reminds me of a boathook, but shank is much too short. Then, I thought maybe a boarding axe, as such items were weapons as well as tools. Also wonderd vaguely about a fireman's axe...18thC or before.... But I think M Eley may have put all this idle conjecture to rest! Richard.

30th January 2013, 09:08 PM	#9
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Mark, Thank you for your post (and depth of reference material! )... To what degree - if any - documentation exists I cannot say. As I understand it, the provenance is known but not documented, though I am not certain of this... I'll follow up on this over the next couple days and post any additional findings regarding provenance should there be any. Also, I guess I have to address that proverbial elephant in my browser window, i.e., that damn inbox that's been full since I don't know when, and clean out a few msgs to make room for some queries I'll be sending via PM... Gene, 'Nando, Richard, and of course Mark - thank you all... Cheers, Chris