Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim. Thanks for the link to the modern dress on the Omani Battle Sword. I have taken the liberty to repost one of your pics to show how they look....
QUESTION....Do you have an irrefutible link to information that this is how these looked in the past?......or is this your impression of how they would have looked? Any photos I have seen of these swords has shown them with bare metal hilts.
The other comment which has appeared often in these threads is the possible reuse of rhino sword hilts for jambiyas. I would have thought that sword hilts would not be big enough to refashion into handles for jambiya.

Anyway...on to the subject of my original question which was to try and find out what, if any hilt covering was on the Yemeni/Saudi swords shown by SWEDEGREEN.

I read with interest your new "take" on these swords, even to suggest that they just might be a "genuine" type, rather than (as you put it) some knocked up backyard item.
There are "quite a few" of these around (as there are Omani Saifs) and it would be reasonable to assume that more would be in their country of origin than elsewhere. The four shown above, it is stated, came out of Yemen in the 1960s, and I have one on the way to me which also came from there about the same time. The actual year in this case was 1963, and I have well provenanced details of who bought it out.
Now to the scabbards. IF these were made as "tourist" items, then why would the maker bother to make a nice scabbard and then "distress" it so that it looked old. Elsewhere in this discussion on bedouin swords and the like, it has been stated that tourism as we know it today, was in its infancy in Arabia in the 1960s and the modern "skills" of aging to mislead, would not in my opinion have been thought of, or at least not widely practiced.

So......do we have a hitherto "unknown", or at least "undiscussed" line of swords? It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads.
Further to my comment above, I have posted some pics of the sword which is on the way to me. These are sellers pics but they show a couple of interesting features. This sword has silver decoration and the drag of the scabbard is well worn skin of some sort....purported to be lion, but I think more likely goat or suchlike. I really think it most unlikely that any maker would bother to use skin and then "distress" it just to fool an unwitting buyer.

Comments Gentlemen please

Salaams Khanjar 1. When we were looking at the Sayf Yamaani.. The Old Omani Battle Sword ... in preparation for cladding the hilt in leather we looked at the Muscat National Museum and Bayt Zubair Museum for examples and took our lead from theirs. As I recall the Al Ain Museum also has an example, however, that one may not be covered. I researched another big private collection of 25 such weapons and discussed the issue with the owner and we all agreed with the Muscat Museums restoration. Naturally hilts of that vintage had lost their leather hilt covers. In addition I only saw one or two with actual scabbards though one of mine with scabbard is in the TRM Museum in Quwait. The hilts in Muscat Museums have also some with long strips of leather counterwoven in a sort of zig zag style onto the hilts and some are complete one piece covers as you show. (We followed the same style of "scabbard" in the restored swords also.)

On the subject of re used Rhino sword hilts for Jambia I have not seen any in original form thus the concept is likely based on a story that so far as I can deduce holds water and is feasible though I have never seen an original. As in all detective work it is really only proven 100% when a real MCoy turns up but the indicators are there for a reasonable assumption to prevail for now.... otherwise we would be at a standstill all over the spectrum no? Absolute certainty is a rare commodity in these matters and in the case of new information it is important to consider all things in that new light.

In view of that I think it right that the Red Sea long hilt be placed under the forum microscope since it could be a very interesting one to unravel. The blade is long and stiff and not the dancing blade of Oman by any means. Is this a fighting blade? Did it have a round tip or a point? Where was it made Yemen Saudia or both or Yemen in the old days and then the area was absorbed into Saudia? (I use the word Saudia to indicate an area rather than historically time wise) The hilt is intriguing being like a stretched version of the Omani Battler in many respects and it would be interesting to know if the two are actually related.

We have seen how the region in southern Saudia has been influenced by the Muscat Khanjar/Royal Khanjar so perhaps the same thing happened with this sword in a similar time scale i.e. mid 19th C. Or is this purely co-incidence?

You mention the leather scabbard cover ... Indeed this could be an indicator of provenance since often they covered weapons with wolf skin..which is what I suspect is on the photo...to ward off evil spirits and strengthen the sword/owner..thus it is a Talismanic effect.

On the question of hilt cover? This is a long meaty heavy blade and for practical reasons if it was a sword I see no reason why it wasn't covered but I have never seen one covered nor do I know for sure what it was used for. I am not certain where the ensemble originates either as they appear in Yemen and Saudia museums and souks. I have Ethiopian blades rehilted on this style but suggest that this is a red herring..but caution that the hilt does in fact follow the monumental style of the Horn of Africa hilts so that area cannot be ruled out yet.

Further intrigue is posed by the comparison of the hilt to the long Omani dancing hilt and the slavers curved sword style... both commomly refered to as the Long Omani Hilt and what relationship if any there is between them. Could it be for example that the Red Sea metal hilt and sword was the forerunner to the Dancing Sayf (and the slavers style hilt) or vica-versa or totally unrelated?

In conclusion the debate is, so far as I can see, entirely open, thus, any ideas from anyone are welcome.

Looking ahead I refer readers to Michael Blalocks http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum and an example is at #1 but it is at #14 that another question arrises... Are these Red Sea variants supposedly from Yemen / Saudia related to the sword in the Wallace collection ~ see # 14. Staying for a final moment to view the picture in the museum on the same page at reference there is what appears to be a German blade on one of the long Red Sea variant hilts.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all. Note to Forum. Is the blade seen held by the man at photo 1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15241 the same sort of blade on the project sword style here?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all. Note to Forum. Is the blade seen held by the man at photo 1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15241 the same sort of blade on the project sword style here?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Sorry I just don't see what this has to do with the type of sword we are discussing. It is a completely different hilt style......

[kahnjar1]

It would appear from the links to Michael Blalock's pics, that the long "Yemeni/Saudi" hilt in fact is a genuine article, and not some "backyard invention". Particularly, the pic of the display in the Museum seems to confirm this. It's a pity we don't know what the descriptive caption says.....
It now remains to try and establish some time line for these, and if possible their place of origin.
I have taken the liberty of reproducing Michael's pics here for reference.
Regards Stu

[T. Koch]

Hi Stu!

Sorry for a tiny bit of OT, but in which museum was the above photo taken? The middle saber with the brass hilt appears to be a Bornean/Sumatran Piso Podang - what a strange company he here finds himself in.


Cheers, - Thor

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Hi Stu!

Sorry for a tiny bit of OT, but in which museum was the above photo taken? The middle saber with the brass hilt appears to be a Bornean/Sumatran Piso Podang - what a strange company he here finds himself in.


Cheers, - Thor

Hi Thor,
I am no expert in these but also thought that Piso somewhat out of place.....I understand that the pic was taken at a Military Museum In Yemen. Michael may respond to this and clarify for us.
Regards Stu

[Gavin Nugent]

Perhaps not out of place at all....Sea trade and Arabian influences are seen in the region.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

It would appear from the links to Michael Blalock's pics, that the long "Yemeni/Saudi" hilt in fact is a genuine article, and not some "backyard invention". Particularly, the pic of the display in the Museum seems to confirm this. It's a pity we don't know what the descriptive caption says.....
It now remains to try and establish some time line for these, and if possible their place of origin.
I have taken the liberty of reproducing Michael's pics here for reference.
Regards Stu

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ Yes, I thought that's what we were doing?...trying to ascertain whether or not ? Try prefixing the concept with the tried and tested formula- where, what, why, when, how and who? It often works.

Further more~ and checking back through the forum library there is nothing set in "stone" here (scuse pun) and quite often a fresh look uncovers unforseen detail. For example what if the Mamluke style of sword blade on post #31 of this thread is related and is there any link to the Omani Battle Sword hilt? Not least in the questionaire is when did it appear, who used it (and for what?) and where? What I do know is this is from the Red Sea region and is absolutely not Omani...

#1 I believe holds the key...since it becomes clearly obvious that the hilt which has some age to it was made to fit this specific style of weapon therefor it was all made at the same time hilt, blade and scabbard...perhaps focus on that.

After that, the field is wide open for a "forum" solution.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Sorry I just don't see what this has to do with the type of sword we are discussing. It is a completely different hilt style......

Salaams kahnjar1 ~Not the hilt ... the blade.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1 ~Not the hilt ... the blade.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

.......yes but the purpose of this thread being reopened was to try and establish what the covering might have been on the long hilt. Subsequently this has been expanded to try and establish a time line and origin of this particular type. I have my doubts that the fitted blades would establish that, as you well know tha the range of blades (and ages of them) fitted to Middle Eastern swords varies considerably in origin and age.
Lets try not to drown the original subject with likely non related side journeys.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.......yes but the purpose of this thread being reopened was to try and establish what the covering might have been on the long hilt. Subsequently this has been expanded to try and establish a time line and origin of this particular type. I have my doubts that the fitted blades would establish that, as you well know tha the range of blades (and ages of them) fitted to Middle Eastern swords varies considerably in origin and age.
Lets try not to drown the original subject with likely non related side journeys.

Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold...

We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out.

I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword".

The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research.

You never know it could be important !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[T. Koch]

Thanks Stu! Would be cool if anybody ever visiting the museum could have a look at their info on the piece. Maybe the data will have a riveting tale to tell, along the lines that Gavin suggests! I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for the museum to go online with their collection..

Then maybe you guys could also get a useful pointer as to time-span for this new sword type of yours.


All the best, - Thor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold...

We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out.

I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword".

The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research.

You never know it could be important !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams ~ Note to Forum. The technique of covering the hilt in leather is multi faceted ..
1. It provides a much sturdier hilt.
2. The anti slip, good grip qualities of leather make it an excellent material.
3. Leather was in plentiful supply from goat, cow, camel and occasionally other tallismanic materials like wolf, hyena and fox.
4. Lastly the habit of covering iron with leather was used to negate the devil/evil link of Iron coming into direct contact with the skin. Iron was seen as attracting evil.

#1 shows how the scabbard was completed in worked leather and it would be easy to imagine that a hilt would be more susceptible to destructive wear thus all that's left is the metalic hilt... in most cases Iron though some with partial other metals in places perhaps the result of a running repair.

The museum plaque probably holds little factual evidence (as usual) Pro active information and detail on Museum exhibits is laughable at best and I would imagine it says something like "Arabian Red Sea swords," however, that is not to write off an aproach on potential information...Anything goes on that quest !

More to the point is the construction of the hilt showing that the style is in line with the technique of the Omani Battle Sword Hilt with Pommel not attached to tang though the two parts of the hilt appear welded unlike the Omani Hilt which is riveted over a wooden insert core. The pommel unlike the Omani Hilt is very crude as are the what look like remnants of quillons which are in fact incorporated into the cuff. Occasionally the cuff has the weird long window like addition which could be to enable a stuck sword to be freed or used in the role of quillons to twist an opponents blade out of his grip. The whole hilt appears as a monumental religious based iconic shape..with a number of potential provenances including African. It could even be a mass produced militia sword.

The full implications need to be examined as it may be a separate as yet unidentified type. Its provenance needs a full airing and any links to other regional variants should be carefully considered.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Note to Library; see post 27, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 for developments in Red Sea swords and the design flow between Abbasiid, Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni and Omani variants.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Just came across this pic in my archives while looking for something else. It shows an Omani Battle Sword with what definitely appears to be a wrapped hilt covering rather than a "fitted" one. Unfortunately I can not remember the source of this pic, which was archived in April 2010, but it clearly puts a different (or at least alternative) light on how things were finished in terms of metal hilts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Just came across this pic in my archives while looking for something else. It shows an Omani Battle Sword with what definitely appears to be a wrapped hilt covering rather than a "fitted" one. Unfortunately I can not remember the source of this pic, which was archived in April 2010, but it clearly puts a different (or at least alternative) light on how things were finished in terms of metal hilts.

Salaams kahnjar1 ~There are several ways to wrap a hilt. It can be simply wrapped round and round like the one in your photo or as one piece or woven rather in a zig zag better described as platted wrap. I note that the haphazzard way in which the sword wrapping is presented could mean that this is a random repair thus not an original form of wrap..

Interestingly on the Omani Battle Sword there are 3 holes (2 for rivvets) the top hole near the pommel is for a wrist strap. The strap anchor hole on this sword seems to be covered.

What is also important in your picture is the silver inlay script on the pommel... not on all swords... but it is thought on some perhaps to glorify a particular event/battle, a religious incantation, or to add/display the power and rank of the owner.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

You say that the "wrist strap hole" of this particular hilt is covered. I note that all three of the refinished hilts you show in your pics, and no doubt done in your workshop, also have the wrist strap hole covered, if indeed there was one there in the first place. The bare hilts you show in various pics you have posted, do not indicate holes either..........
Clarification please.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

You say that the "wrist strap hole" of this particular hilt is covered. I note that all three of the refinished hilts you show in your pics, and no doubt done in your workshop, also have the wrist strap hole covered, if indeed there was one there in the first place. The bare hilts you show in various pics you have posted, do not indicate holes either..........
Clarification please.

Clarification ~ No not quite.
If you can see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 all of the pictures of my Omani Battle Swords have wrist strap holes. The covered hilts that are fully covered havent had a hole bored in the leather as yet...except the centre one which in fact has a cotter pin in the top hole...which was in the original but may have been added by the previous owner. Invariably this top hole is about quarter of an inch from the pommel. Interestingly there is also a cotter pin in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 at #9 which is a Mamluke variant similar to the style that I compared the Omani Battle Sword to in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

The hilts are not done in my workshops but are in pretty well natural as found condition with the rust removed...and with the core of wood replaced since the existing ones were rotted out. We used the original rivvets where possible.

The only additions are the leather work. Of course, we take pride in getting the detail right which is why we observe the museum items carefully first, thus, we would never recommend this to amateurs.

We also have a number of swords actually in museums.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Stupid question time.

There is far too much repitition within this thread and those referred to for me to stay focused.

The long hilted Omani sword, of the type pictured is only a dance sword?

Regards

Gavin