Great Helm late 14th century ?

A Senefelder · 14th January 2013, 09:17 PM

Well as far as dating goes this " final " development of the great helmet as a piece of field armour ( it would develope further for use in jousting culminating in the big " frog mouthed " tournement helmets of the late 15th century ) are almost universally attributed to " the end of the 14th century " although in truth by the last years of the century they would have been a little dated on the field, houndskulls being " state of the art " at that time. That being said there are a few later examples like that of Sir Nicholas Hauberk ( died 1407 ) which appears to be of the " frog mouthed " jousting type, and Henry V had an early development of the more " frog mouthed " type specifically for jousting, of early 15th century manufacture, although it was not field but " sport " equipment. " Late 14th century " is safe although by the 1390's it would be as I mentioned a bit dated.

Jean-Marc S. · 14th January 2013, 11:01 PM

Thanks Senefelder

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2013, 03:13 AM

I knew Alan would have an excellent entry on this, and since this is not at all my field, I wanted to do some research anyway, It is a great opportunity to see one of these rare but distinctive helms, which seem to often be depicted in many illustrations of the knight, it appears on the logo for the Danish Arms & Armour Society.

It would be interesting to know more on exactly what auction and date this one is provenanced. One of these, appararantly considered authentic, was sold by Sothebys, London, 21 May 1974, #185 to the Royal Armouries, and had been owned by Peter Dale Ltd.
It was published in Journal of the Arms & Armour Society in June, 1977, Vol.IX, #1, "An Unrecorded English Helm c.1370" by Derek Spalding (pp.6-9)

Apparantly up to 1974, only two of these helms of this date/period with English provenance were recorded. The most famed of these was the helm of this same form of Edward , Prince of Wales (The Black Prince) c.1376, held in Canterbury Cathedral.
The second (for which the form is apparantly named) is that of Sir Richard Pembridge c.1375, originally at Hereford Cathedral but then to the Royal Scottish Museum in Edinburgh.
The helm of this article is apparantly suggested by Mr. Spalding to be the third helm of this particular 'great helm' form from this specific period.

I am wondering what the source is for the illustrations of the Pembridge helm against a replica posted here. While there are of course a number of modern reproductions of this famous form, it is known that in the 19th century (about 1830s-1878) a Samuel Lake Pratt in London was dealing in then modernly produced items including these type helms (made by someone named Grimshaw). This according to Spalding's footnotes is referenced in "The Knight and Umbrella" by Ian Anstruther, 1963.

It seems I recall an example of one of these 'great helms' among the holdings at the armoury at Castel Sant Angelo at the Vatican as well, but as yet have not found that reference.

This is a fascinating example of these famed helms, and I look forward to hearing more from Jean-Marc and Alan regarding the information from this 1977 article.

All best regards,
Jim

** Found the Castel sant Angelo reference
" Archaeology of Weapons" Ewart Oakeshott, London 1960
p. 263, a great helm from Bozen (S. Tyrol) c.1280-1310 (fig. 129)
This one has a flat top and riveted band, the 'breathing holes' in pattern on the front sides are T shaped, and this seems to be a German type.

There was another article written in these I believe in "Man at Arms" magazine, but as yet have not located.

Jean-Marc S. · 15th January 2013, 09:09 AM

Thanks Jim for all this interesting information. I just got this great helm from a long time collector, who purchased it from a specialized dealer in 1993. It was previously sold at Sotheby's or Christie's auction a decade before, at 8,000 £ (from memory, he did not remember exactly which auction and is currently looking for the corresponding catalog page among his tons of papers; I will let you know ASAP).
To Jim: The link to the photo has been provided in my previous post

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2013, 05:48 PM

Thank you Jean-Marc,
In looking at the photos of the helm you have posted against those in the example published in 1977 I have described, there are remarkable similarities which might even suggest these could have been from the same workshop. In the published one (sold at Sothebys in 1974) there is a hook or some type of fixture atop the dome, where the one you post there is a hook resembling some type of belt hook if I see it correctly at the back, while the dome seems unappended.

With this I would estimate this one to be contemporary (based on visual assessment) to those which are as noted English and of about 1370. This may be essentially a fourth of the type from this particular dating, and as noted possibly from the workshop of the one to the Royal Armouries in 1977. Naturally my opinion would defer to those here far better versed in armour, Alan being probably the most experienced.

All the best,
Jim

A Senefelder · 15th January 2013, 06:59 PM

Jim, Henry the V helmet has the same piece on the back of it. Pics here http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12798.html . These helmets are not " light ", Henry's I believe is something like 16-17 pounds so that bracket at the back being a belt loop seems unlikely for at least that example. In tournaments, it was not uncommon to secure a re-enfocing plate on the left side of the helmet. I have wondered if these brackets may have been for securing this tournament re-enforcing piece.

Jean-Marc S. · 15th January 2013, 10:46 PM

Thanks Jim and Alan for the interesting information, and links to these nice documented great helms.

What stroke me first

was the dark, brownish black metal color of my great helm, which is very similar to the color of the documented 14th century English great helms, such as the one of Sir Richard Pembridge: there is some light corrosion to the metal with a sort of surface coating of hard black oxide. In my opinion, this should be noted as most helmets from the period are often seen 'bright' metal.

15th January 2013, 03:13 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I knew Alan would have an excellent entry on this, and since this is not at all my field, I wanted to do some research anyway, It is a great opportunity to see one of these rare but distinctive helms, which seem to often be depicted in many illustrations of the knight, it appears on the logo for the Danish Arms & Armour Society. It would be interesting to know more on exactly what auction and date this one is provenanced. One of these, appararantly considered authentic, was sold by Sothebys, London, 21 May 1974, #185 to the Royal Armouries, and had been owned by Peter Dale Ltd. It was published in Journal of the Arms & Armour Society in June, 1977, Vol.IX, #1, "An Unrecorded English Helm c.1370" by Derek Spalding (pp.6-9) Apparantly up to 1974, only two of these helms of this date/period with English provenance were recorded. The most famed of these was the helm of this same form of Edward , Prince of Wales (The Black Prince) c.1376, held in Canterbury Cathedral. The second (for which the form is apparantly named) is that of Sir Richard Pembridge c.1375, originally at Hereford Cathedral but then to the Royal Scottish Museum in Edinburgh. The helm of this article is apparantly suggested by Mr. Spalding to be the third helm of this particular 'great helm' form from this specific period. I am wondering what the source is for the illustrations of the Pembridge helm against a replica posted here. While there are of course a number of modern reproductions of this famous form, it is known that in the 19th century (about 1830s-1878) a Samuel Lake Pratt in London was dealing in then modernly produced items including these type helms (made by someone named Grimshaw). This according to Spalding's footnotes is referenced in "The Knight and Umbrella" by Ian Anstruther, 1963. It seems I recall an example of one of these 'great helms' among the holdings at the armoury at Castel Sant Angelo at the Vatican as well, but as yet have not found that reference. This is a fascinating example of these famed helms, and I look forward to hearing more from Jean-Marc and Alan regarding the information from this 1977 article. All best regards, Jim ** Found the Castel sant Angelo reference " Archaeology of Weapons" Ewart Oakeshott, London 1960 p. 263, a great helm from Bozen (S. Tyrol) c.1280-1310 (fig. 129) This one has a flat top and riveted band, the 'breathing holes' in pattern on the front sides are T shaped, and this seems to be a German type. There was another article written in these I believe in "Man at Arms" magazine, but as yet have not located. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th January 2013 at 05:31 AM. Reason: update-found reference

14th January 2013, 09:17 PM	#1
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Well as far as dating goes this " final " development of the great helmet as a piece of field armour ( it would develope further for use in jousting culminating in the big " frog mouthed " tournement helmets of the late 15th century ) are almost universally attributed to " the end of the 14th century " although in truth by the last years of the century they would have been a little dated on the field, houndskulls being " state of the art " at that time. That being said there are a few later examples like that of Sir Nicholas Hauberk ( died 1407 ) which appears to be of the " frog mouthed " jousting type, and Henry V had an early development of the more " frog mouthed " type specifically for jousting, of early 15th century manufacture, although it was not field but " sport " equipment. " Late 14th century " is safe although by the 1390's it would be as I mentioned a bit dated.

14th January 2013, 11:01 PM	#2
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Thanks Senefelder

15th January 2013, 09:09 AM	#4
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Thanks Jim for all this interesting information. I just got this great helm from a long time collector, who purchased it from a specialized dealer in 1993. It was previously sold at Sotheby's or Christie's auction a decade before, at 8,000 £ (from memory, he did not remember exactly which auction and is currently looking for the corresponding catalog page among his tons of papers; I will let you know ASAP). To Jim: The link to the photo has been provided in my previous post

15th January 2013, 05:48 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Thank you Jean-Marc, In looking at the photos of the helm you have posted against those in the example published in 1977 I have described, there are remarkable similarities which might even suggest these could have been from the same workshop. In the published one (sold at Sothebys in 1974) there is a hook or some type of fixture atop the dome, where the one you post there is a hook resembling some type of belt hook if I see it correctly at the back, while the dome seems unappended. With this I would estimate this one to be contemporary (based on visual assessment) to those which are as noted English and of about 1370. This may be essentially a fourth of the type from this particular dating, and as noted possibly from the workshop of the one to the Royal Armouries in 1977. Naturally my opinion would defer to those here far better versed in armour, Alan being probably the most experienced. All the best, Jim

15th January 2013, 06:59 PM	#6
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Jim, Henry the V helmet has the same piece on the back of it. Pics here http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12798.html . These helmets are not " light ", Henry's I believe is something like 16-17 pounds so that bracket at the back being a belt loop seems unlikely for at least that example. In tournaments, it was not uncommon to secure a re-enfocing plate on the left side of the helmet. I have wondered if these brackets may have been for securing this tournament re-enforcing piece.

15th January 2013, 10:46 PM	#7
Jean-Marc S. Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: France Posts: 104	Thanks Jim and Alan for the interesting information, and links to these nice documented great helms. What stroke me first was the dark, brownish black metal color of my great helm, which is very similar to the color of the documented 14th century English great helms, such as the one of Sir Richard Pembridge: there is some light corrosion to the metal with a sort of surface coating of hard black oxide. In my opinion, this should be noted as most helmets from the period are often seen 'bright' metal.