VIVAT PANDOUR INSCRIBED HUSSAR SWORD

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2013, 06:23 PM

While the pics are agreeably on the rough side, this sabre seems more impressive agewise, though the sword knot of course has nothing to do with the sword as an original element.
These markings are a type of European device which seem to evolved from earlier Italian makers stamps of about 16th century, a sort of 'star' image closely related to the 'twig' and 'marca mosca' forms.
The circle with radiating lines seems to resemble solar symbols, but is referred to by Briggs (1965, p.49) as a 'cogwheel' type mark.

It seems these 'cogwheels' occur on Swiss arms c.1560s and in various groupings on N. Italian blades c. 1600-20. While Briggs suggests German copying of these, it seems those are not open circles but filled and not in larger groupings like the Italian configurations.

The Italians seemed to favor these multiple and linear repititions of single devices in certain examples, and these 'cogwheels' even seem to occur in some of the sickle type marks instead of the three dots.

Since this sword seems East European, either Hungarian or Polish, and with these Italian style grouping of these 'cogwheels', it could possibly be a Styrian product as they seem to have favored Italian markings (especially the sickles) and they are known to have been suppliers to Hungarian producers.

Valjhun · 15th January 2013, 02:26 AM

Great! Thank you Jim!

Thank you very much. In the meanwhile I searchead a little in my limited literature and found a similar sword in the croatian book Ubojite Ojstrice by Mario Kovac, under the item number 99 on pages 69 and 114. It is a much better looking husar sword marked with crosses rather than cogs, but arranged in a similar way. The interesting fact is, that it bears also the mark of G.Lindl (according to the author) from Judenburg in Styria.

Ironically, the sword returned to Styria, where apparently was produced and it is still located in Styria in an old collection (togheter with that composite kilij I put for comment recently). It is kept by a nice old Lady whos husband passed away and she is still unsure wheter keep the collection or wheter to sell it. I will post better pics when or if I have the chance to visit her.

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2013, 05:55 PM

Thank you so much Valjhun!
I do not have the book you note on Croatian arms, but thank you for the support toward my Styrian assessment, also for the detail on this makers name. It is fascinating that this sword indeed returned to Styria, and I really look forward to more on this as it develops, please keep us posted!
It is extremely rare to find one of these with this kind of provenance.
I am sending PM.

All the best,
Jim

Victrix · 18th April 2017, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Great! Thank you Jim!

Thank you very much. In the meanwhile I searchead a little in my limited literature and found a similar sword in the croatian book Ubojite Ojstrice by Mario Kovac, under the item number 99 on pages 69 and 114. It is a much better looking husar sword marked with crosses rather than cogs, but arranged in a similar way. The interesting fact is, that it bears also the mark of G.Lindl (according to the author) from Judenburg in Styria.

Ironically, the sword returned to Styria, where apparently was produced and it is still located in Styria in an old collection (togheter with that composite kilij I put for comment recently). It is kept by a nice old Lady whos husband passed away and she is still unsure wheter keep the collection or wheter to sell it. I will post better pics when or if I have the chance to visit her.

Hi Valjhun,

I wonder if you know how I can best obtain a copy of the book Ubojite Ostrice? I tried to contact the Museum of Zagorje to no avail.

Many thanks for your advice.

Jim McDougall · 18th April 2017, 11:18 PM

Glad to see this thread opened since we have a current discussion on 'pandours' via the 'Austrian hussar' sabres thread going.
Here is a blade of a sabre with the 'Vivat Pandours' image, which I found but not unfortunately with the rest of the sword.

As discussed several years ago, the 'Vivat' theme was well known about the time of the original Pandour units c. 1744, but they never used the term pandour. These images with that term came about when other units with similar function were assembled in various European militaries later in the 18th c. (the original von Trenck units in Austria were disbanded c.1748).

The 'pandour' term came to be regarded with similar connotation as the 'dragoons' term in England, and such use as meaning 'to be dragooned' or run down mercilessly referring to the British troops in the Highlands in 'police action'. The original units became notorious for wild outlaw type behavior in their pillaging and foraging.

Their fearsome appearance with exotic costume and weaponry, along with that added to their countenance.

The 'Vivat Pandur' theme was essentially applied in the same sense as 'Remember the Alamo' motto on countless Bowie knives produced in and for Americans long after those events at the Alamo in Texas in 1836.

Philip · 21st April 2017, 07:38 AM

A similarly garbed figure on a horse seems to have been a stock figure on engraved saber blades of the 17th-18th cent. which have come down to us in Eastern European and Asiatic hilts. There are minor differences in costume, but the steed is generally rearing up and the horseman typically has a tall hat, some sort of cape, and is holding a saber.

I have two examples in my collection, one a mid-17th cent. Polish saber ex- armory of the Princes zu Salm-Reifferscheidt-Dyck with no "vivat..." banner over the cavalier but with 4 patriotic and religious mottoes in Latin in lieu of this, and the other a Russian one with similar imagery, inscribed "Tula" (in Cyrillic letters) on one side and "1778" on the other, this latter one in a Qianlong- or Jiaqing-era Chinese hilt and scabbard.

Prof. E. G. Astvatsturyan, in ORUZHIYE NARODOV KAVKAZA (armament of the Caucasian peoples), St Petersburg 2004, illustrates several examples (figs. 38-40; 43) recorded on shashka blades. One of them has a "Vivat Hussar" banner inscribed over the figure, the author identifies the blade as coming off of an 18th cent. Prussian regulation saber. The others are believed to be Solingen export blades, or native Caucasian copies, on these examples, the horseman is accompanied by the mottoes "Pro Deo et Patria" or a garbled version of "In te, Domini speravi non confundar in aeternum".

The most interesting appearance of one of these blades is an extremely rare example of a European blade in Japanese hilt and scabbard, with the outward appearance of a katana when sheathed. In the National Museum in Copenhagen, it is believed to have been fitted-up late in the 17th or early 18th cent. and is ex-King Frederick VII collection, transferred to museum 1864. The familiar horseman is augmented by several Latin inscriptions positioned above and below (as on my Polish saber), these with numerous misspellings and losses (due to corrosion and wear). The sword has been written up in an article by Per Terje Norheim, "Et Euro-Japansk Sverd i Nationalmuseet i Kobenhavn", VAABENHISTORISKE AARBOGER XVI, pp 163-73. Interestingly enough, the author makes reference to yet another European blade in Japanese dress, this one exhibited in London and Oxford in the 1960s, this one inscribed "me fecit solingen 1633" (but no mention made of the horseman iconography.)

Bottom line is, that figure of a cavalryman had quite a cachet in its day, a lot like the Marlborough cowboy in our time!

Jim McDougall · 21st April 2017, 07:00 PM

Philip, thank you so much for this great input! and especially for always, as is your hallmark, always furnishing such well detailed and cited references. Your resources are remarkable, and the insight from your experience coupled with these references give those pursuing these topics the inroads for further research.
Interesting to know more on these particular motif designs as well, and I like the 'Marlborough man' analogy!

Victrix · 30th April 2017, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Great! Thank you Jim!

Thank you very much. In the meanwhile I searchead a little in my limited literature and found a similar sword in the croatian book Ubojite Ojstrice by Mario Kovac, under the item number 99 on pages 69 and 114. It is a much better looking husar sword marked with crosses rather than cogs, but arranged in a similar way. The interesting fact is, that it bears also the mark of G.Lindl (according to the author) from Judenburg in Styria.

Ironically, the sword returned to Styria, where apparently was produced and it is still located in Styria in an old collection (togheter with that composite kilij I put for comment recently). It is kept by a nice old Lady whos husband passed away and she is still unsure wheter keep the collection or wheter to sell it. I will post better pics when or if I have the chance to visit her.

I wonder if someone who has the catalogue Ubojite Ostrice (2003) by Mario Kovac and Vlatka Filipcic Maligec can scan or photo pp.69 and 114 and post them here or send them to me in a PM? I have a special interest in the sword supposedly depicted on those pages. I have tried to obtain a copy of this catalogue but to no avail. Many thanks.

18th April 2017, 11:18 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Glad to see this thread opened since we have a current discussion on 'pandours' via the 'Austrian hussar' sabres thread going. Here is a blade of a sabre with the 'Vivat Pandours' image, which I found but not unfortunately with the rest of the sword. As discussed several years ago, the 'Vivat' theme was well known about the time of the original Pandour units c. 1744, but they never used the term pandour. These images with that term came about when other units with similar function were assembled in various European militaries later in the 18th c. (the original von Trenck units in Austria were disbanded c.1748). The 'pandour' term came to be regarded with similar connotation as the 'dragoons' term in England, and such use as meaning 'to be dragooned' or run down mercilessly referring to the British troops in the Highlands in 'police action'. The original units became notorious for wild outlaw type behavior in their pillaging and foraging. Their fearsome appearance with exotic costume and weaponry, along with that added to their countenance. The 'Vivat Pandur' theme was essentially applied in the same sense as 'Remember the Alamo' motto on countless Bowie knives produced in and for Americans long after those events at the Alamo in Texas in 1836. Attached Images

21st April 2017, 07:38 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	common motif on regulation and trade blades alike A similarly garbed figure on a horse seems to have been a stock figure on engraved saber blades of the 17th-18th cent. which have come down to us in Eastern European and Asiatic hilts. There are minor differences in costume, but the steed is generally rearing up and the horseman typically has a tall hat, some sort of cape, and is holding a saber. I have two examples in my collection, one a mid-17th cent. Polish saber ex- armory of the Princes zu Salm-Reifferscheidt-Dyck with no "vivat..." banner over the cavalier but with 4 patriotic and religious mottoes in Latin in lieu of this, and the other a Russian one with similar imagery, inscribed "Tula" (in Cyrillic letters) on one side and "1778" on the other, this latter one in a Qianlong- or Jiaqing-era Chinese hilt and scabbard. Prof. E. G. Astvatsturyan, in ORUZHIYE NARODOV KAVKAZA (armament of the Caucasian peoples), St Petersburg 2004, illustrates several examples (figs. 38-40; 43) recorded on shashka blades. One of them has a "Vivat Hussar" banner inscribed over the figure, the author identifies the blade as coming off of an 18th cent. Prussian regulation saber. The others are believed to be Solingen export blades, or native Caucasian copies, on these examples, the horseman is accompanied by the mottoes "Pro Deo et Patria" or a garbled version of "In te, Domini speravi non confundar in aeternum". The most interesting appearance of one of these blades is an extremely rare example of a European blade in Japanese hilt and scabbard, with the outward appearance of a katana when sheathed. In the National Museum in Copenhagen, it is believed to have been fitted-up late in the 17th or early 18th cent. and is ex-King Frederick VII collection, transferred to museum 1864. The familiar horseman is augmented by several Latin inscriptions positioned above and below (as on my Polish saber), these with numerous misspellings and losses (due to corrosion and wear). The sword has been written up in an article by Per Terje Norheim, "Et Euro-Japansk Sverd i Nationalmuseet i Kobenhavn", VAABENHISTORISKE AARBOGER XVI, pp 163-73. Interestingly enough, the author makes reference to yet another European blade in Japanese dress, this one exhibited in London and Oxford in the 1960s, this one inscribed "me fecit solingen 1633" (but no mention made of the horseman iconography.) Bottom line is, that figure of a cavalryman had quite a cachet in its day, a lot like the Marlborough cowboy in our time!

14th January 2013, 06:23 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	While the pics are agreeably on the rough side, this sabre seems more impressive agewise, though the sword knot of course has nothing to do with the sword as an original element. These markings are a type of European device which seem to evolved from earlier Italian makers stamps of about 16th century, a sort of 'star' image closely related to the 'twig' and 'marca mosca' forms. The circle with radiating lines seems to resemble solar symbols, but is referred to by Briggs (1965, p.49) as a 'cogwheel' type mark. It seems these 'cogwheels' occur on Swiss arms c.1560s and in various groupings on N. Italian blades c. 1600-20. While Briggs suggests German copying of these, it seems those are not open circles but filled and not in larger groupings like the Italian configurations. The Italians seemed to favor these multiple and linear repititions of single devices in certain examples, and these 'cogwheels' even seem to occur in some of the sickle type marks instead of the three dots. Since this sword seems East European, either Hungarian or Polish, and with these Italian style grouping of these 'cogwheels', it could possibly be a Styrian product as they seem to have favored Italian markings (especially the sickles) and they are known to have been suppliers to Hungarian producers.

15th January 2013, 02:26 AM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Great! Thank you Jim! Thank you very much. In the meanwhile I searchead a little in my limited literature and found a similar sword in the croatian book Ubojite Ojstrice by Mario Kovac, under the item number 99 on pages 69 and 114. It is a much better looking husar sword marked with crosses rather than cogs, but arranged in a similar way. The interesting fact is, that it bears also the mark of G.Lindl (according to the author) from Judenburg in Styria. Ironically, the sword returned to Styria, where apparently was produced and it is still located in Styria in an old collection (togheter with that composite kilij I put for comment recently). It is kept by a nice old Lady whos husband passed away and she is still unsure wheter keep the collection or wheter to sell it. I will post better pics when or if I have the chance to visit her.

15th January 2013, 05:55 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you so much Valjhun! I do not have the book you note on Croatian arms, but thank you for the support toward my Styrian assessment, also for the detail on this makers name. It is fascinating that this sword indeed returned to Styria, and I really look forward to more on this as it develops, please keep us posted! It is extremely rare to find one of these with this kind of provenance. I am sending PM. All the best, Jim

21st April 2017, 07:00 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Philip, thank you so much for this great input! and especially for always, as is your hallmark, always furnishing such well detailed and cited references. Your resources are remarkable, and the insight from your experience coupled with these references give those pursuing these topics the inroads for further research. Interesting to know more on these particular motif designs as well, and I like the 'Marlborough man' analogy!