Badik for comment

[Sajen]

I can't tell for sure something about the origin from your's and mine but when you have a look to Albert's book at page 27 there the badiks with similar elongated handles are described as Java origin but with "?".
And want to remember this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=badik
So I can understand the question from Alan. On the other hand, the examples in the book and from Ganjawulung have all a very similar handle form what let think that this form is typical for Java badiks.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Just as the keris originated in Jawa, the badik originated in Sulawesi.

No argument about this.

Yes, the Bugis people were traders, travellers, pirates, and that's how the badik spread into many other areas. No argument about that.

However, this particular style of badik differs in a number of significant particulars with the style of badik that we can definitely attribute to Sulawesi.

Mr. van Zonneveld seems to think that based upon his research, this style of badik might come from Jawa.

More than 40 years ago I was told by dealer in Jakarta that the badik I had bought from him was not from Sulawesi, but from Jawa. During that same visit to Jawa I met a fellow in Malang who was from Makassar, and I asked him if he recognised this badik as of Sulawesi origin, he told me he had never seen a badik of this style in Sulawesi.

Over the years since then I've run this question past a few other people whom I thought might know. None have confirmed Sulawesi as a point of origin for this style, most have given the opinion that it is a Javanese style of badik.

On the basis of such evidence, which is really only opinion, I'm not prepared to come out in favour of either Jawa or Sulawesi, or somewhere else entirely, rather I do think that this matter is still open to question.

Incidentally, in respect of the blade, I am virtually certain that close examination would reveal that this blade is a replacement, and possibly part of a shortened Javanese pedang.

[semar]

and how we can do that ??????????
when its posibel and i not wil damage the badik and way do you think that about the style of the pamor ????
and sajen you have some nice badiks

regards semar

[A. G. Maisey]

By "close examination", I mean close examination by a person with the knowledge and experience to identify with a reasonable prospect of accuracy the probable source of this blade.

From a photograph it is not possible to assess the material used, it is not possible to assess blade geometry, it is not possible to inspect distal taper, it is not possible to carry out a microscopic appraisal of the blade surface, it is not possible to form a supportable opinion of the comparative age of blade and the dress.

Add to this the fact that very probably the only person who could carry out such an examination would be one who is a part of the Indonesian trade in these objects and who has adequate experience and knowledge in the area and what you have is a situation with no easily available resolution.

Almost everything that is required in order to form a supportable opinion is not possible from a photograph.

There is one thing that can be seen from the photo in this case, and that is the way that pamor has been retained at the expense of functionality. In any blade that uses a core, that core should ideally be exposed at the cutting edge or edges. In this badik the core loses exposure as it nears the point. This would seem to indicate that the blade was not forged to shape and lacks sufficient distal taper, but rather was produced from a piece of material that was originally wider and most likely thicker. A badik is intended to be used as a thrusting weapon, not a cutting weapon, which means that in construction the point must be prioritised, in the case of this blade, that has not happened.

During my lifetime I have had several of these badiks. I still have one. They have never had a typical badik blade fitted to them, but have had blades made from re-cycled keris or pedangs.

Every one of these badiks that I have had has been considerably longer than the type of badik we associate with Sulawesi. A blade of the size and form of the blade in this badik under discussion would need to be very thin and have considerable taper to provide the balance that we find in a typical badik; this balance in the typical badik is conducive to extremely fast instinctive use.

How many weapons of any form have we ever seen with a pamor like this that we can be certain have come from Sulawesi? Personally, I have seen none.

How many weapons with a pamor like this have we ever seen that we can be certain have come from Jawa-Madura? Speaking for myself, a very great number, most of which have been pedangs.

It is very common practice in Jawa to re-shape blades for use in other weapons. The two major centres where this is particularly prevalent are in Surabaya and Jogjakarta. There is a spinoff from Surabaya to Malang and Blitar, and dealers in these two towns have connections with Surabaya. Of course much of the product of Surabaya and Jogja winds up in Jakarta.

Last but not least we have the style, quality level, and motifs used in the dress of this badik. To my eye these appear to be closer to Javanese in origin than to anything I've seen from anywhere in Sulawesi.

There are varying levels of knowledge within the dealer network in Jawa, and very often a dealer himself will not have the necessary knowledge and experience to provide accurate information on everything he sells --- even if he wants to. Because of this we need to educate ourselves to a level that will permit the identification of tells that may give an indication that something is not quite what it may seem to be. There is no easy way that I know of to gain this education, and like all education, it costs money.

[Sajen]

Regarding the form of Badik handles: I just have had a look to the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" and have found two badiks with such elongated handles.

[asomotif]

Nice pictures Detlef,

The blades you show make clear what Alan wrote about the pamor and the core of the blade. notice the way the core follows the blades point on your examples.

Never the less Semar's badik is a nice one with very nice silverwork.

Best regards,
Willem

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

The blades you show make clear what Alan wrote about the pamor and the core of the blade. notice the way the core follows the blades point on your examples.

What Alan write about the pamor and the core seems very logical and he is most probable correct. My point have been the elongated handle form.

Regards,

Detlef